00:00 KIM Plant medicine, yeah, which I used to consider to be drugs. I was in this field of spirituality where a lot of people were doing plant medicine. I thought, yeah, it's just an excuse to do drugs, because I've known the drug scenes from when I was younger. But then suddenly I get a different insight. Plant medicine is really something different than what I associated to drugs. It even has come to the point that our Minister of Health, just a few weeks ago, received a research done on plant medicine, MDMA, that it's very beneficial for people with psychiatric disorders. So we are really getting into a different phase on plant medicine, which we used to qualify only as drugs and being bad. I think alcohol do much more harm than consciously taking MDMA or truffles or mushrooms or other psychedelics.
00:52 ROULA Can you take me with you in the emotional and physical path that got you started with the plant medicine?
00.59 KIM Well, I have been on this personal development path for many years, which started, I think, whenever I hit rock bottom, doing a lot of alcohol, drinking, eating, just to feel alive. And alcohol and eating, that was my main distractions to not feel. So then I was around 23 and working, working hard, making a career, being very successful at a very young age. Oh, I forget one very important, and having sex with as many people as possible. So it was having sex with as many people as possible, working very hard, trying to be successful, doing a lot of alcohol and eating too much, unhealthy, just not having to feel. And then I really hit rock bottom and decided that I needed to develop myself. So personal development then became a topic in my life, which was at the beginning really understanding, trying to understand my behavior, my choices, and approaching it from a very cognitive perspective. Then fast forward, that was very helpful. I still use these qualities in talking and listening to people. But fast forward, it was the moment that I embodied all this wisdom, like applied personal development, I consider it, is where the real shift happened. And on this path of really more embodiment, I also came across plant medicine. The first time I used it was macrodose. So that's a big, in a setting, a ceremonial setting with a shaman, very conscious with two dear friends with whom I felt very safe. They guided the whole day in nature. This was one of the, like I gave birth to my children, and this was another very impressive experience. That was the beginning of this, integrating this more also in my life, although I don't think we actually need it, but it can be just a nice push to get things going a bit. Now I use it more in a micro setting, so just in a certain periods of time, just very small dosages. What are you looking for in this plant medicine journey? For me, it was very important to feel the calling, and that sounds very spiritual, but it has to do with, for me at least, I can only talk for myself, really get more into, like the path before was to get more intuitive. Through everything I've been doing, breath work and the personal development, all kinds of stuff, made me more able to listen to my inner voice, to the whispering of my body. There suddenly, I just became aware that this plant medicine just crossed my path more and more often. Then suddenly I felt this longing, okay, this is, it's not a longing, it was just very clear, oh, this is my next path. So this was on the way to it, I just had a very strong calling, knowing that I wanted to experience this, which made it a very, and I think it's difficult for me to find the English word, zuiver, pure, yeah, pure guidance. So then I decided, okay, with whom, and then, yeah, just started to listen to all the signs on my path, and I made a choice, I wanted to do this shaman in an outdoor setting in nature, which was very beautifully in the dunes in North of Holland, and with two people I felt very safe with.
4:42 ROULA This is not another night in the city, drugs and alcohol. This is something you prepared for, you chose the shaman, you have the trustworthy people to be with you on this experience. What was this experience all about, and why the role of these people is so important?
4:53 KIM The shaman is expert, and the other two men are colleagues of mine from the Wim Hof Method, and yeah, we just had a very deep, not just regular colleagues, we see each other. So I felt safe with them, and they had more experience just as participants themselves, applying it themselves. And then the setting was really finding our place in the dunes, in nature, it was beautiful weather, so had it been raining, it would have been cancelled, so the setting was beautiful, outdoors. This is really a South American shaman with his instruments, we really made a beautiful circle, he had been preparing this kakaoashka for us to share and to drink. So there was a very beautiful setting in nature, and we took this and I was a bit… I think I felt a bit anxious. I don't know what's going to happen, but I felt very confident too, because I knew I wanted to do this, I wasn't scared. Then it was just so subtle, because I've been… I've been doing a lot of drugs in a more extreme way, I had drinking so much that I would pass out. So this was much more subtle, and something that was much more familiar for my body. So it came up in a very subtle way, very gentle, and then it made me very… My senses got more pure, like hearing the zooming of the flies, and hearing the walking of the ants. So all the senses got to the stage of very high intensity. Pure, yeah, just I think more stronger senses. It was just like a very quick download of information, of memories, of the future, of the past, of the world on a whole, on my own life. It was just a very quick download of information, which I just had to follow and move with. We were sitting and then we had a walk. Sometimes I just lay down and sink in, and I felt completely melted in the earth underneath. And other moments I just wanted to walk and observe and look around and have the sight into my eyes of everything around. The light became much more pure also. It took hours. I remember I had this beautiful insight, which I had never experienced before, of my middle name. My middle name is Helen, which means healing in English, and in Dutch as well. Like my name is Kim Helen Podding. This moment I started writing. I started writing a little book, and I started writing Helen, Helen, Helen, which means healing. Then I thought, strange that I write in Dutch. Usually I would write in English in these settings, because it was guided in English as well. So I started writing in Dutch, Helen. Then I read what I had written, and I realized, Helen, that's my name. That's my second name, my middle name. It felt like a very profound moment that I realized that my middle name had been missing for me. A lot of healing took place in this one day. And of course, it was a path to it and from it and since, but this was a very profound moment. Is there something you wanted to heal from? I didn't know in that moment. I realized that what I wanted to heal from was nothing, not something I came, I didn't come with an intention, I want to heal from this. But what I realized in that moment is that I was able to feel really my body, my physical body. I had experiences like that before, when I took my first ice bath, for instance, before I went through life as a walking head, I always say. But there, in that moment, I felt my whole, and especially the center of my center of my body present. Instead of being hollow or feeling like there was something missing, I felt very present. Being able to connect to this feeling of presence, physical presence, has become my superpower. This superpower appears to be achievable for everybody.
9:48 ROULA In the course of the episode, we will talk about other superpowers you discovered and you've given on to other people. It's realistic, nothing holistic, and nothing psychedelic. But my question, where have you been before the plant medicine experience and before discovering your superpowers? Where have you been as a woman, as a mother? And how did your career look like back then?
10:18 KIM The biggest change had been the birth of my children. That was the first big shift in career. Everything after was just very more subtle changes. Because then I realized I used to work in telecommunication. And I realized if I cannot be with my children, which were then still babies, I want to be and do something that's really valuable. For me, that was personal development of myself, but of course, also of other people. I wanted to work in The Hague because I had been traveling through the country, but I had small children. I didn't want to waste any traveling time. So then I found a career in the municipality of The Hague, where I guided people who came from a vulnerable situation to integrate again into their daily life. I always see that people are good enough and want to help them and guide them so they can feel this on themselves as well. I want to give them perspective. That was the most, the biggest skill I think I brought into the job. But this was always very much focused on, OK, then they have a job and a house, they're fixed. But we all know a life only starts there. You're not fixed if you have a job and a house. So that made me get into more in-depth personal development, not only on employability, coaching, and guidance. That's very nice. It's very effective. But how do you maintain a job? How do you take care of yourself in this forever changing, constant changing world? So this has been a process through many years. Then going back to the three years ago when I did the plant medicine, that was after my dad had passed away for a year and I had to take on a responsibility, or I wanted to take on a responsibility in his company, which I did for one year. But then I also decided this is just temporarily. I was looking again for, OK, so what do I want to develop for myself next? So this was one step in this development journey. When I became a mother, I think this was a very, very essential period of time. Before I had just been living, drinking, smoking, whatever, eating a lot. I was having a very unhealthy lifestyle, which if you would look from the outside, it was pretty normal as well. But I did have a really bad addiction to food. Becoming a mother of two boys, but I also had the privilege to take care of my first child, who I always say I'm not her mother, but she's my first child. It was the child of my husband. And she's a girl. She's now 22. She just turned 22 yesterday. I realized I really hated my body. I really detested my body. When I paid attention to my body, it was to either feed it and overfeed it or to judge it. To really look at myself in the mirror and really talk ugly to my body. And then I realized I'm living the example my children are seeing. So if I want to be a good mother, I have to change me. And I have to change my relationship with me. And because I even wanted for my husband to accept me with this self-judgment, but this was a very big challenge for him too, to have his wife feel so uncomfortable with her body. He once let me know that for him, this was very challenging too. And I felt that was so selfish. It was eventually the biggest gift he could give me because he woke me up. Then I realized, yeah, if I want to be a good mother, if I want to serve others, I really have to take care of me on a very essential level. And it is starting to accept me exactly the way I am. So then that was the first time that I went into group therapy on eating disorders. I had acknowledged this to myself in the past before, but I never really touched base to really get and give this a place in my life.
15:03 ROULA You finally give the eating disorder a place in your life. You go to group therapy, and then something went wrong. The therapy was not what you were looking for. What happened?
15:19 KIM What one learns in therapy, at least what I experienced, was to really understand, to look at it from a cognitive perspective. What I missed was to really embody, to really feel my body because this is what I longed for. What I had been doing up till that very moment was the only moments I felt my body was when I over ate because then I just felt so bloated and I just gained weight. This was my mechanism of how to feel my body. This was all explained and very well explained. Even later on, I got the diagnosis of ADHD and then medication is offered. But I kept longing for how to get self-coaching tools to self-regulate. I just couldn't find them in the regular therapy settings. Well, I did learn a lot. I did learn a lot. But it also challenged me to keep looking. And that is, I think, a privilege of whatever we think of ADHD, but you keep looking until you get this hyper-focus. I kept looking on what can I do myself. Since I had never finished any education in my past because I was so distracted, I would be interested in something for three months, six months, and then I would go to the next subject. So I started an education on food and hormones, how to regulate your hormones with natural… Let food be thy medicine instead of medicine. I kept trying to find information in other sources. That brought me to get more into embodiment. I also walked this path of spirituality and I would go to spiritual leaders, try to meditate and sit still. One day I said to this old man, I said, but then should I be sitting on a mountain and then I will be completely happy? He said, that would be such a waste of your talents, Kim. That was a really big message. I have to do it here. It's not in the future. It's not somewhere sitting on a mountain. I have to apply it in my life. That really motivated me to be more present and embodied in my daily life. But it's not enlightenment that was the way it was. I realized it's embodiment that's the way. I have been going, I said, I've been going through life as a walking head. Can you describe practically what does that mean? Completely disconnected to the rest of my body. And yeah, for me, it's so logical to say, and bless you if you don't understand what I mean, but a lot of people do understand. I now notice a lot of people understand, oh yeah, I live inside my head so often, just mentally, and I feel disconnected. If I bring it down to our sensory system, it makes sense as well. Because if I would ask most people, how many senses do we have? They would say five, maybe six, but four out of our five senses are in our head, our sight, our sense, our tasting, our hearing, and our touch. Our sensory system is focused on the outside world, and most of the senses come in through our head. If we look, we look outside. If we hear, we try to listen. What I realized is that I was missing the senses in the rest of my body. And we are even taught, like when I got diagnosed with ADHD, it's better for you to take medication, because then you can self-regulate, and you don't feel that rushed. Then I realized, maybe there is a more subtle way to feel. And I came across breathwork and the cold. I was watching some videos with my oldest son, he was around eight. He came across Wim Hof, and Wim Hof is known as the Iceman. He's a Dutch guy. Now he's worldwide famous. Back then, he was just this kind of eccentric gentleman. And we started following him and taking cold showers. I hated the cold. Like even if I would go to the sauna, I would never go into the plunge after. But we started taking cold showers, and I went to this event. It was a festival, and they had this workshop. They gave a breathwork session in the dunes, and then an ice bath on the festival. So I thought, okay, that's what I'm gonna do. The most scary thing there was that I was standing in front of a group. There was like an audience, because it was a festival. So there was an audience of 49. I was standing there in my bikini. This was the most horrific thing I could ever imagine, because I hated my body. I could not even look at myself, let alone have other people see me half naked. I was guided so well, I had to go last out of 20 people or something. She guided me into the bath. Stepping in, I felt the cold around my feet, around my legs. I laid down in the bath. I let myself sink into the ice water. Then I felt warm on the inside. It was not something I expected. I felt warm on the inside, physically warm. I felt strong and proud. I make it very romantic. In the ice bath, this is where everything changed. Of course, it was a whole path to it. But there was a very big moment. In the ice bath, I felt sincere pride and power on my body, on the inside of my body. Then I realized, okay, I don't think I have ever felt this. So this is interesting. Then I wanted to go to Wim. I visited him in a very big setting. And then I realized he offered travels to Poland. I decided, okay, I'm gonna go there. I was always very difficult on spending money on myself, but this was very clear. I wanted to go to Poland. So I went to Poland. Before, I had two weekends to become a Wim Hof instructor trainer. And in Poland, it was the final week. We had to climb a mountain wearing only shorts and a bikini top and shoes. In Poland, in winter time, it can be somewhere between five degrees till minus 20. One can do this. It's just where do you put your attention? The day before we climbed the mountain, we were requested to share a story on the year that had passed before, what you had learned about the method and integrate a personal story. So that brought me back to my first ice bath experience being on this festival, standing in front of an audience in my bikini, which was the most terrifying thing I could imagine back then. I also was very afraid to speak in front of an audience. So here I have this little audience because I have to give my presentation. Then I realized, okay, I could do a really good presentation, prepare very well and do it very good. But then I realized, yeah, but that is, even that, although it feels uncomfortable, is within my comfort zone. If I wanna practice what I've learned, then I really have to take it to the next step. And then I had to be really honest to myself. What is my most scary thing I could do right now? That would be standing in front of an audience without any clothes. That like standing in front of an audience is scary, but standing without my clothes on, that was next level. What made it very scary was to really show myself and not to give only the good version because that is what I learned so long. Back then I was around 38, I think, 37. I always was what we now call greenwashing. I always looked at every experience from, oh, but look at the bright side of this very shitty experience. Always look at the bright side. And never acknowledging the true discomfort. I felt so uncomfortable, the idea of really showing myself physically and not trying to put on my best clothes. To make a good presentation, but to stand there. And again, in front of my bikini, I didn't go bare naked, but I did decide to step in front of the group, prepare my story. And before I started, I said, the most scary thing for me is to stand in front of you showing my whole true self. So then I slowly started to undress myself in front of the group and continued my presentation, standing in my bikini. Standing in my bikini. When I started to undress, I knew I wanted to do this because I didn't want to hold back and I wanted to show my me fully. But I remember also starting to really try to finish the finish line. I wanted to get it over with as soon as possible. I felt very rewarded after it. Like I felt emotions and I felt pride again for the second time around, in a way that, yeah, that is very rare. The day after we had to climb the mountain, it was minus 20 degrees back then, and we were short in the bikini top, which is different by the way, if you are walking a mountain than standing in front of a group in the same clothes. But the day after was like a walk in the park. The whole mountain minus 20 was easy because I had climbed my inner mountain the day before. I come from this, totally hating my body and resenting myself into feeling slowly an integration of everything I had learned in therapy and understanding. I saw that they even had a training to become a Wim Hof instructor. And then I thought, okay, I'll apply. I was admitted. I went into this year program where I learned about breathing and cold exposure. This is the one superpower I think, or tool people need to self-regulate better, especially the breath. The cold is very, it's like a mirror. It's very rewarding, instantly rewarding and long-term rewarding. But it's the breath that we have with us every day, every moment during the night and during the day. And if you learn to regulate the breath and to recognize from the signals of the breath how you are doing, this is the one superpower that we need to embrace. My teenagers now are taught about gas exchange in school, but they are not taught how to apply the gas exchange. What does it mean for me? Like gas exchange is like this process. It's like this physical process, but the physical process, it's autonomic, but you can also do it consciously. How does it influence you then? When do you feel out of breath? When do you hold your breath?
28:10 ROULA Through ancient history, breath work is proven to be an adapted practice. There is evidence of that. Most big evidence are women giving birth and using breath technique in other aspects of their lives from the beginning of time. I wonder what's the impact and how breath work differ in our lives in this modern time.
28:33 KIM From ancient time, women are in a more natural way connected to the breath because they can sustain like giving birth, which is the most intense physical process one can go through, I think, aside death. So yes, women are easily connected, but we are now in 2023. We are also very easily male or female, disconnected to the breath. Even recently had a conversation people know about sleep apnea, but there's also screen or tech apnea. We spend so much time on our screens, just stop breathing for a moment. And that is not very beneficial for our bodies. And this could result in less focus, being distracted, brain fog. If this will add up to for longer, this will disturb our hormones, or our hormones will disturb all other body systems, which can result in more depressed feelings and so on. When your breath is calmer, your nervous system is calmer. So our stress response system knows only two ways, which is active, fight and flight, or relaxed, rest and digest. It's called sympathetic nervous system or parasympathetic nervous system. Our breathing will help us to get more into the parasympathetic nervous system. Now, 2023, we are so often in sympathetic nervous system, being active, fight and flight, being there ready to perform the whole day through, even when you're sitting down behind your computer, there's less of a natural seesaw between the two of them. The breath can help us to get more into the parasympathetic, just by an exercise for a few minutes will influence your autonomic breath instantly. And this goes for really for 98% of the people who do this. If you do a breathing exercise that works for you, it will beneficially regulate your unconscious breathing in a positive way.
30:45 ROULA How do you get ready and prepare yourself before you are leading individuals in their breathing sessions?
30:54 KIM It all starts with getting connected to my truth in the moment. Every time when a session goes really well, it was because I was fully present with everything inside of me, instead of trying to perform. And I notice wanting to perform attitude so well. This is how I got completely distracted from the rest of my body, because I just had to do something really good, be successful in what I do, but lost a connection to my body. Now to really be a good spaceholder, as we see, say in our business. Space holding, I think is the most important competence in guiding others. It's in the place of where I am fully present with everything that is inside of me, and I'm completely available for the other person, whether it being one person or a whole group. Space holding will help if you have a group of people or one person who's holding space, it will give the other people in the room a sense of safety and trust that they may be lack for themselves in that very moment, because it's exciting to be going to the ice bath or going into the cold. You know, there's somebody in the room who's holding space and everything is good. You are good enough. You can bring in everything, whatever comes to heart. It starts with me tuning in with me. That's where it starts. That is also being gentle for yourself. I know all these skills and I know that I can apply them. I also know when I forget them, and sometimes life just does take over and things happen and you have a lot of responsibilities. For a moment, I forget to use these skills and competences, but every time I become aware of it, ah, yes, oh yeah, I'm not connected to me. I train myself to go, oh yeah, I can come back again. You don't have to be perfectly connected to yourself all the whole time, but training this skill will help you to be able to apply it when it's needed and acknowledge all the discomfort that could be there as well, giving people the opportunity to express their truth as well. Especially when people are at the beginning of a trip of a week, they will feel uncomfortable because they are in a new group, which for some people can be very scary. Having to connect to people and looking around, they all look so fit and am I good enough? So this could be something. It could be because the whole experience with the cold could be very challenging and anything in between.
33:47 ROULA I'm truly curious about the type of person that would be drawn to such an activity. Can you tell me about the group that you guided in Poland?
33:58 KIM My last group, I wasn't aware, I entered the airport where I welcomed my group and I just received a list. It appeared to be 19 men, 19 men from all over the world between 19 and 53 years old. I didn't know that back then, but I find out later. So 19 men and I think they were all extremely fit, half of them tattooed, a bald head, of course, bearded, very masculine appearing men. I used to be very much intimidated if I would, having the responsibility to guide a group of men like this. They all looked like they are the perfect cross fitter. Some were, like we even had a ninja in the group. I used to be very much intimidated. Now I wasn't because I felt good enough for myself. What I learned when I started to get acquainted to this cold and this breast work, I saw a lot of, especially to the Wim Hof method, I saw a lot of people who were extremely fit and wanting to achieve the next kick. But I, as being a very feminine woman, felt very much attracted to this method as well. And having not the perfect body, I did feel like I belonged there as well. My mission was, back seven years ago, to make it accessible for normal people. As I say, everybody, like not for everybody, because you do have to be willing to face your discomfort and to really be, have this sense of convincing that this could be beneficial for you. If it's not, then choose something different. But if you feel attracted to the method, it doesn't matter what body type you have. It doesn't matter what challenges you have. I even had guided this young man who was paralyzed from the waist down after a motorcycle accident, and he too could do this. So it's for every body, but not for everybody.
36:06 ROULA Can you talk more about what was the state of mind and soul for both yourself and your group during the session in Poland?
36:17 KIM I felt comfortable, I felt at place. And I realized I don't have to have all the answers. I did feel a very strong calling. What I was there to bring was my femininity. And having this whole male group, in the past I would have adjusted to their masculine energy. I have a lot of masculine energy in myself as well. But they actually motivated me to be my masculine and feminine side integrated. They even were interested in hearing my feminine approach. Yes, they thought they were gonna come there to climb that mountain, to be really cool and to have really amazing Instagram pictures. But what they found is to climb their inner mountain, which was much more subtle. It was all about going within. And suddenly the whole Instagram pictures were not important anymore because they found the silence within. At the last day, I remember that we did a lot of cold exposures and we did a lot of breath work. Breath work is amazing to get you in altered state. So every morning we started with breath work, getting people in altered state. And altered state is usually when you fall in love or when you're on drugs or on alcohol, then you feel an altered state and suddenly all the wisdom of the world comes together inside of you. You can also get there, your inner wisdom, with your breath. That is not cool and this is not nice Instagram pictures because you are there in bliss laying down in a mat. So we started with breath work every day and cold exposures a lot. On the last day we did a cold exposure. We went into the waterfall and the men were in there for a certain time, I'll never say how long. They got out and they started to warm themselves from the inside. It's a very important follow through. It's not the cold exposure that is the only thing, it's the cold exposure and following through by warming yourself from the inside. And this requires very much mental presence, being really completely present and using your body to warm yourself from the inside. This doesn't go with taking cool Instagram pictures because then you'll be distracted. On the fifth day I saw this group of men getting out of the water, feeling very excited, but using this joy and this excitement to be really silenced as well. I thought that was the most beautiful thing I could watch. To have this group of men who appear to be very extrovert and really cool, high on their energy, they suddenly used this energy to be very silent and connected on a completely different level without words. There was just such a strong connection with this group of men, which a colleague of mine, a female colleague and I had the privilege to guide them for a whole week. It was the most beautiful and hopeful thing to watch, to see men from all over the world between 19 and 53 finding the silence and the soft power within without having to show off. And I loved that.
39:56 ROULA Kim, can you please persuade me that breath work and cold exposure are not simply temporary trends?
40:03 KIM I don't think it's a trend. I think it started as a trend. A lot of breath work starts as a trend. Putting Instagram pictures on you in an ice bath or in natural water looks like a trend, but marketing wise, I say sell them what they want and give them what they need. It's good that it's a trend because then we will achieve, reach a lot of people, but I think we are going through an evolution. We so long, we seeked development outside of ourself. Like Wim always has this beautiful example. We created things to go to the moon, but we forgot to find ways to go within. Although it looks really cool to be in the ice bath, it all has to do with finding your way within. If you learn how to adjust your body and your mind to make your body and mind more flexible to the constantly changes of the world, this is how we will evolve. And my oldest son brought me on the path of Wim Hof, who is not my guru. I want to say that, but he's an inspiration like many others.
41:24 ROULA After finding embodiment and nurturing your personal development, how do you approach your everyday life?
41:31 KIM When I started to get more into this, my children now becoming teenagers are completely not interested in that, of course. I just live my truth and I trust that my children and the people around me will pick from it whenever and whatever is suitable for them. I also am mostly inspired by them because I think they are much easier adapted to, for instance, the whole tech world. As long as my children are not interested, I'm not forcing anything on them, but I do trust that when the time comes to it, they will knock on my door and say, Mom, hey, then they might be interested in what I have to say. Until that time, very subtle, I will not try to fix their circumstances because I cannot. I could go to the teacher and try to fix things, but I rather give them tools how to fix it themselves. And there are also, I will always integrate not only competences from a cognitive perspective, but also, okay, but how do you feel? How will you stand if you approach this teacher to say what you want and to really make sure they embody all the knowledge they learn in school instead of only being able to write an exam, but to feel how does my body feel when I get into this difficult situation. That is something that my parents were not able to bless them, but they were not able because they were not taught. And I feel very much privileged that I learned to connect to my body, which I was only able to learn because I was so disconnected and that I can now hand this over to my children.