Roula: 0:18

At the end of this episode, you will receive a beautiful gift from my guest Kelly Dupie. If you like this episode and feel it adds value to your daily life, you'll also appreciate what I have to share at the end. This will give you a sneak peek into upcoming content, allowing you further to enjoy and benefit from practical and positive tips you can immediately apply to your life. Welcome to the Life Affairs Podcast. This is a place where we share life experiences and the many lessons learned by just living. Join me to immerse ourselves and take a closer look at the stories that shaped and defined us. Just remember, there's no judgment and a lot of understanding on today's episode of the Life Affairs Podcast. My guest and I talk skills to handle daily annoyances in romantic relationships. Those little things that can save or break a relationship. Lot of truth, sometimes even embarrassing to say out loud. When we argue with our significant other, it's not about miscommunication only. It's a lot about ego and pride. Sometimes it becomes bigger than this, even though it all started over the dishwasher annoyances. Here is what I have for you to rise above the household chores argument, the stonewalling, and the feelings of not being heard. First, I want to introduce my guest, Kelly Dupie. Kelly is a charismatic and warm hearted husband, dad, grandpa, pastor, and police chaplain. He is also a marriage coach and author of the book, Turn It Up, how to have a lifelong marriage that you really want. For me, this is the ultimate guide to making coming home a joyful moment, reviving the relationship and growing closer to each other. For Kelly, it all started when his wife said she was unhappy. He was shocked. He highlighted everything he did for her and the kids, including taking out the trash daily. When she expressed a need to feel special, he began his journey to make her happy again. The journey is rough, and no need to say, we all live it, and sometimes divorce from it rather than fixing it. Some of us become stronger together and grow emotionally, romantically, and personally. Others part ways. And those who sweep their needs under the rug, stay together without growth, romance, or security. My conversation with my guest today is raw, true, and full of practical examples, paired with solutions that we can apply today to achieve agreement, trust, appreciation, and love. Here's my cup of tea and let's start the conversation. I want you to take us with you in your story when your wife said to you that she is unhappy.

Kelly: 3:42

Yeah, out of the blue, I'll never forget this moment. We had been married maybe about seven years. We had two small kids. I thought everything was great. And then she just kind of in a very calm way. She wasn't angry, but I am really glad she had the courage to speak up. Because it literally changed the course of our marriage. And what she told me is that I'm, I'm not happy. I want something more. And when I said, well, what do you mean, or, or tell me more about that? And she came up with this phrase. She goes, I want to feel special to you. That made a lot of sense. And I said, well, okay, but look at all the stuff that I'm doing. And I talked about. You know, the way that I, whatever, I, I even make sure I take out the trash, you know, on a regular basis. She goes, yeah, well, that's really romantic. And I'm talking about, yeah, well, I clean up and I do the dishes and, you know, cause I, I do kind of have, I think one of my love languages, and we can talk about those if you want is kind of acts of service. So I serve and I do a lot for my wife and my kids. And I thought that that was good enough. And it wasn't. Because what she was looking for was to know that I was the top priority in her life. And so that night I went to bed and just began to think about, okay, what can I do to show my wife that she's special? So in my book, I talk about, I tell this, the story about the next morning, I got up early and there's a, a fresh bagel shop in our neighborhood here, and I walked over there, got a bagel, made her coffee, put it on a tray, got a rose from the garden, and, and put it in a little bud vase, and then brought it to her while she was still in bed. And when she saw that act of kindness, she cried. And I went, wow, that's what she's looking for. Do something unexpected. Do something special. In fact, one of the things that she actually gave me a, a, a suggestion, kind of a hint that I still do to this day. It's called a just because gift. Now, just because I was raised and, and I, I think maybe a lot you or your listeners, you know, that you only got gifts on special occasions. So for example, if it's your birthday or Christmas or maybe Father's Day or Mother's Day, that's when you give a gift. And she goes, no, I'm talking, and it doesn't, they don't have to be expensive. She wasn't asking for anything, you know, that costs a lot of money, but she just said, you know, if you're ever at the store or at, you know, a department store and you see a little I don't know, like earrings or something. And, and, you know, they just cost a couple of dollars and you think, Oh, maybe my wife would like that. Or, you know, when I'm traveling and I'm in another city or maybe even another country, you know, bring me back something that you think I'm going to like, you know, these kinds of gifts surprise me sending a card. So my wife works at a hospital nearby. And so rather than just give her a greeting card when she gets home, I'll do that sometimes, but sometimes what I'll do is I'll write up a card and I'll put it in the post and I'll mail it to her office. So then when she's going through the, her mail, here's this thing from her husband. So that's a just because gift.

Roula: 7:21

I don't think most of men will accept what their wife said the way you did, because most of the time this ends up in an argument and most probably each one will go to bed really sad.

Kelly: 7:36

I, yes, absolutely. And is your question, what made you, yes,

Roula: 7:42

yes. Why are you different in your reaction?

Kelly: 7:46

Wow, that, that is really a good question. I think, I think a lot of it has to do with my faith, that I, I view my marriage as, and serving my wife and my kids, and now my grandkids, as, uh, what God has called me to do with my life, you know? And I ask myself, what can I do? How can I serve? How can I be a blessing, if you will, if you're okay with that word? And, and I think part of it too is really wanting to be the kind of husband that, and, and I guess part of it, honestly, is that one of my struggles is a fear of rejection. And so, you know, so that's going to make me and so by nature, I tend to be a people pleaser. Now that has gotten me into trouble over the years, you know, so I have to be careful with not kind of getting into that. Psychologists call it kind of a codependent sort of tendency, and so I do have that to rescue and to overly help people. I'm a helper by nature, but the good part of it is that When she said she wasn't happy and that she wanted me to feel, I wanted her, wanted me to make her feel special. My response is, okay, you ain't seen nothing yet. Here we go. It was a challenge. It was an invitation to just jump in and prove to her or demonstrate. So I didn't feel rejected. In fact, if anything, as I reflected on it later, I felt grateful because once again, she felt safe enough with me. to confront in a loving way, in a positive way, in a helpful way. She wasn't complaining. I guess you could call it a complaint, but it didn't come out as a complaint. It certainly wasn't an attack. Well, like you're a bad husband and don't you know what I need? It didn't come off that way. And I think sometimes the defensiveness that comes, especially from men, there's two things I could think of that can contribute to that one is just this prideful attitude that I got a lot of guys fall into, which is I'm right. You're not going to tell me I'm wrong. You know, I know what I'm doing. Leave me alone. I don't need you. You know, I'm, I'm okay by myself without you, you know, which is this attitude of self sufficiency or pride, if you will, or arrogance is another word that I think kind of describes it. The other thing though, is the sense that when their wives voice a complaint or a concern even, okay, it comes off as an attack. So I'm thinking of one couple that I am coaching. And have been coaching for, for, Oh gosh, over a year now at Tom, from time to time, it's not a constant thing, but from time to time. So he was raised in a situation where he didn't have a strong male presence at home. He was raised by a single mom and with his grandmothers and his sisters and his aunt and in, in that kind of thing. So he didn't have a good strong male role model, but His mother and I think his grandmother as well. Anyways, his family was always very, very critical of him. So one of the things that we kind of had to unpack together so that they could have a better marriage was the fact that whenever his wife, like he said at the time, he wasn't working full time. And so he was taking care of a lot of the household chores. And so she would get home from work. And instead of saying, thank you for doing the dishes and thank you for, you know, vacuuming the floors. And thank you for doing the laundry. She would point to the one thing that he didn't do. And he would feel so angry that she just, it was like, I, I don't feel like I, he felt attacked. And when we feel attacked, one of the things I've learned, a lot of us, we attack back. It's called that fight or flight response. And so when we feel attacked, we either going to run away or we're going to fight back. So I would suggest if, if there's some wives listening and they would like to have the same conversation that I had with my wife, they have a complaint. Do it in a calm, loving, helpful manner. So if you're angry, take a moment to calm down. Because if you just come at, at your husband, uh, or anybody, a friend, a co worker, a boss certainly, even your child, if you come at them with anger, it's going to trigger that fight or flight response, which is going to hinder them from listening to what you have to say. Plus then, you're probably going to say a lot of things that you might regret anyways. And because anger is speaking not, you haven't really thought it through. So one of the things that I kind of, that I like to do in coaching is give little scripts and the script to confront is really simple. It goes like this. I felt, or I feel, if you're still feeling that way, and then you fill in the blank, angry, sad, happy, frustrated, enraged, whatever word you want to use. When you, and then you tell them what they did. Cause there is a reason that you're mad and it's okay to be mad, but calm down first and then use this little script. I feel when you, and then you make a simple request, would you please? And then you fill in the blank. Would you please call if you're going to be late? Would you please, I don't know, pick up your clothes off the floor. If you know, the guy does that, would you please? Think about making me feel special. Just simple little things.

Roula: 13:47

You mentioned something I see a lot on Instagram. When I glance at my husband's phone, or we even share it to each other's, he's watching the man's perspective and I'm looking at the woman's perspective. It's true that women often notice that. what isn't done at home. We can't do everything. And men don't seem to notice or care about some chores. They never say you didn't clean the window. Chores are a top argument for couples. Men feel unappreciated for what they do, while women feel their efforts are unnoticed. This is pain point for both. Don't you think bridging the gap require practice and teamwork?

Kelly: 14:26

Yeah. And that's kind of what I like to do because the answer to that scenario is You know, if, if the wife is asking her husband to do something, the way she needs to do that is important, but then the followup, the feedback, the appreciation, going back to that couple that I was talking about, what I got them to do, I said, I got his wife to say, thank you for this, this, and this. And Oh, by the way. Um, did you do that one? No, I forgot that one. Okay. Well, in other words, she communicated with more understanding, and I like to use the word grace. Grace is not bringing condemnation or shame or, um, pointing at failures, but it's allowing that person to kind of save face, if you will, and, and respond to that request. So I would, I would, I got this husband, by the way, the way this all worked out. Is to give himself a grade. So if she asked you to do 10 things and you did nine, what does that mean? That means you got a 90%. That's a really good grade, isn't it? And he goes, yeah, you're right. So maybe next time I'll get 10 out of 10, but I'm not going to beat myself up or feel angry if she points out the one that I didn't do because I did do nine other things. Or whatever the number might be.

Roula: 15:52

This sounds horrible. Like, this sounds like we women want our list to be done. And if it's not done, nothing is satisfying us. Caricaturistic in a way.

Kelly: 16:04

Exactly. It can be. And so appreciate what he is able to do. Or prioritize, you know, like if my wife, you know, Because I work from home now, so I do a lot of the cooking and cleaning and everything. And I'll ask her, what do you need me to, is there anything I can do for you today? And if she gives me an item, I better have it done by the end of the day. Why? Because she's going to walk in the door expecting that. And if she gives me too many, I mean several items to do, things to do, I'm going to ask her, okay, what do you need to see done today? Okay. Or maybe she'll tell me, can you do this today? So now I get to prioritize. So at our jobs, right? When I had an assistant that worked for me at the church that I was working at and managing all of these projects and different things at the church, when I would give her too many things to do, we would always have what we call the priority conversation. Okay. You want me to do these eight different things or take care of these eight different areas? Which one is the most important? What needs to happen today? What is the priority for me? So I think couples can do some managing management little skills in a, in a way as well, where let's talk about the priority. And then when you agree on here's the priority and here's what it needs to be done by, then the thing that I like to talk to the guys about is you have now made a promise. a commitment to get it done and I like to elevate it to that level of a promise. Even if it's something as simple as go to the store and buy some milk today. Okay? Because a lot of guys, we get really focused on all the other stuff we need to do. On our jobs, on our careers, on our projects, on our hobbies. Guys get real focused on that and we may forget about the milk.

Roula: 18:03

It's not like forgetting about the milk. I feel sometimes the real issue is also, I don't want to call it issue, sometimes what happens is that what's on the women's list are items that are not for the men. So in this case, they feel that why do I have to prioritize these two things? They're not important. Making the bed is not important. You know, this, they tend to not do it because for them, it doesn't look important.

Kelly: 18:54

Good point. Good point. And, and, and so one of the things that I would say to a man that's kind of looking at those to do lists in that way, And I think the wife can, can help by explaining why it's important. But if there's a husband that's just resist, you know, he doesn't understand that it's important and he doesn't embrace it in the priority in his busyness and is the things that he needs to do for that day. One area would be to say, do you want your wife to trust you? Well, of course I do. I'm a trustworthy man. Most guys see themselves as being trustworthy. Okay. What do you think you could do to demonstrate or to show your wife today that you, that she can trust you? And the answer is, if she asked you to go to the store and get some milk, go to the store and get some milk. It's not that hard. You need to listen. You need to prior, if it's important to her. Make it important to you if you want her to trust you because trust really is all about or a way to build trust I should say a simple way to understand trust is that I will do what I say I will do If I made a commitment, I made a commitment to you to show up to this podcast on time today So now you trust me because I was there on time We do that with other people but sometimes we don't do it with the person that we live with And so it's, it's just making commitments or promises and then fulfilling them. And if you can't or if you don't know how or, or, or you run out of time or whatever, then be responsible for that commitment and renegotiate. Hey, you know what? Yeah, I needed, I can't, I couldn't make it to the store today for the milk. Are you okay if I go tomorrow morning so that you can have it with your coffee? I'm going to get up early. But I couldn't do it today. Is that all right? And now she says, Yeah, that'll work as long as I get it. By the time I'm you know, you know what I'm saying? So So we learned to to accommodate those things. And that really builds trust. And it builds a stronger connection in that relationship.

Roula: 21:11

This is a good example because it shows how we can build trust and validate each other without getting defensive from a woman's perspective. It feels like we want to complain because men don't do something immediately and we lose this trust that they will do it. What's the message for a woman in here?

Kelly: 21:32

Well, like I said earlier about appreciate what he can do and then that will get him to do more. So appreciation is like a paycheck. I mean, when you get paid for going to work, You, you then recognize, Hey, I want this money. I can buy things with this money. I can have a nice life with this money. So I'm going to go to work and I'm going to work hard and be, do a good job. When, when a either, either side of it, a man or a woman, you know, in a, in a relationship shows appreciation, think of it that that's the paycheck, if you will. I love it when my wife says, thank you. I really appreciate that. That then motivates me to do it again. So, ladies, yeah, appreciation will help you get what you want. The other thing is be really clear with your requests. And here's the thing that I hear a lot from women. In fact, a story for you, okay? Shoot. There was a couple that came to me before they got married and she complained he doesn't do what I ask him to do. And I said, well, can you give me an example? And it was the beginning of December when we were having this conversation. And I'm not sure if you do this in the Netherlands, but in America, especially in California, we decorate our houses for Christmas. You do it, I think, in Holland as well.

Roula: 23:06

More and more every year.

Kelly: 23:08

Yeah, yeah. So it's a big thing. So she asked him to put up the Christmas lights and I looked at him and I said, well, what's going on, buddy? Why didn't you put up the Christmas lights? And this was maybe, you know, a couple of weeks later when we were having this conversation. So let's say it's the middle of December and he still hadn't put them up yet and she was getting frustrated and he goes, well, it's not Christmas yet. And I looked at him and he goes, well, Christmas isn't until December 25th. So I guess I still have until December 24th, right? Yeah. Well, here's the point. When she said put up the Christmas lights, she meant put up the Christmas lights. Now, when he heard put up the Christmas lights, he heard the message. Would you please put them up before Christmas? So the solution to this is another simple little trick. And it's basically, would you Pete, and then I encourage couples to be polite. Use the word, please use the word. Thank you. Would you please put up the Christmas lights and then give him a day, give him a time, give him a specific target to shoot for. So would you please put up the Christmas lights by this Sunday at five o'clock? Now, he can either say yes, he can say no, you know what, I'm going to be out of town this weekend, I can't do that, or he can maybe renegotiate. Well, you know what, I can put up part of them by Sunday at 5, but could I have another week to put up the rest because, you know, whatever reason. So, a little simple thing like that will, will turn it around as well.

Roula: 24:57

This is a great example because it applies to so many daily things that happen where we don't give a specific time or date. And we consider it's not done because our expectations are a little bit far from the message or the communication.

Kelly: 25:15

Yeah, exactly. And, and so then with, with that, you want to be, you want to come to an agreement, you know, you make, and this is a win win. I will do this for you. Here's another thing to think about. I didn't make up this concept, but I think it's really true. I think in some ways that men want to be the caricature or the the character in the novel that is the knight in shining armor, right? You'll see it in different stories. And I'm not being gender stereotyping here, so please don't misunderstand me. And I'm not trying to be insulting at all. But I think a lot of guys want to be the hero. They want their wife to be, they want to help their wife. But what I also hear and have observed and, and have helped couples with is sometimes some wives or some women don't want to be helped. They want to do it all themselves. So to, to go back to your, what can we learn as women question. I would suggest that a great thing to do is let your husband or your boyfriend help you. Even though you can do it yourself. It's not an insult. It's not questioning your ability. You don't have anything to prove. All right, let him help you and then appreciate him when he does. And it will change the dynamic. If you're coming in through the front door and you have the groceries from the store and, and, and you're trying to, you know, and he, and he's sitting on the, on the sofa watching television and he says, Oh, can I help you? Well, maybe you don't need help, but here's the tip. Say yes. Yeah. That would be nice. Let him help you. Even though you can do it yourself, even though it's not that big of a deal. And watch what it does for him. Now, maybe this is kind of an American attitude and I'm not sure if this would translate to, to Holland, but I think it might be helpful.

Roula: 27:24

This is universal. This is in our DNA, many women, even with, with the friends, women, we don't want to be helped. It's man wants to be appreciated and woman wants to do it all to prove that We can be independent. We can do it on ourselves. We don't need help. That's why I think we're getting burned very quickly because of this mentality. You're hitting on so many things that I hear in the conversations around me. And one of these things is that, but why doesn't he seize what needs to be done? Why do I have to tell him how he can help me? What can you tell me about this?

Kelly: 28:09

Okay, well, once again, I think that the way God created human beings is that there's some different character traits, um, that are different between men and women. Okay, my opinion here. And so, one of the things that I've noticed about women is that, if you will, they tend to be very concerned about, um, And let's maybe go back to the caveman days. Maybe this is where it all came from and we've evolved since then. But a woman, well let me, let me restart over. A man is going to be focused on providing for his family. So what did that mean in the caveman days? He had to go out and he either had to hunt or fish or gather, right? So it was nuts and berries and You know, plants or he needed to. And then, you know, later that became agriculture. So he would go out into the fields and plant his crops and then bring in the harvest so that he could feed his family. So his focus generally, and once again, this, these are, I'm not trying to be, you know, too broad, but just, I think this might be helpful. A woman's focus generally is on the cave or the nest, if you will. Okay. You'll, in fact, I remember when my wife was pregnant and now even when my daughter was pregnant, I have a two year old grandson from my daughter. During that pregnancy, there's sort of this hormonal thing that kind of kicks in and they're all about fixing up the nursery, the baby's room, we got to get a crib, we got to get a bed, you know, all of the different little things that infants need and it's okay. And so there's sort of this drive and maybe it's cultural, but I'm wondering if it's maybe. you know, instinctive. And so I think that's one of the reasons why guys don't see everything that needs to be done at home. So the answer would be help him help him see. And once again, make requests, give him a specific time, Or ask him to take on an area of responsibility. Okay. So now that I'm working full time from home and I'm not in my office anymore, and my wife is still going to her office and working away from the home. One of the things I naturally do is I do all the cooking now, at least for dinner. You know, we each take care of our own lunches, but I want to make sure that dinner is, is ready to go when she comes walking in the door. So in the morning, I did it today. Okay, here's what I'm thinking about making. What do you think? And she'll give me, well, why don't we have this instead or, you know, whatever. She'll give me some feedback. So I know once again, that I'm going to make her something that she would like that kind of works within my diet and what I'm capable of doing. Now, I am not a gourmet cook. I am not going to have something fancy, but you know, we're not going to starve either. So anyway, my point is that now I have that as a, As a responsibility, so we can also delegate or invite, if you will, if you like that word, you can invite your spouse to take on a responsibility and not just a specific task. So, for example, one of my responsibilities, and this has been the case for years, is the floors. We have a tile floor in our kitchen, and so, and then we have carpet in some of the house. And so my responsibility is to vacuum and then mop the tile floor and then vacuum the carpet regularly. So my wife never asks me, unless I haven't been doing my job, okay? So see how that's different from, would you please do this today? That's a task. A responsibility would be, I'm committed to make sure the floors are clean. That's my responsibility. So now I can take initiative and I can do it whenever I want, but it's still, it needs to be done on a fairly regular basis, as you know. So I think that might be another way to, to, to really manage things in your home more effectively, have a conversation with each other about who's going to do what, who's going to do the grocery shopping. Maybe we'll both do it. Maybe you're going to do it. Maybe I'll do it. Who's going to do. So by the way, since I'm in charge of the menu, I also am in charge of the shopping. Right. It makes sense. Hey, this is what I want to cook. I need to go to the store and get it.

Roula: 32:58

Many men love staying at home with their babies, but can't because they need to work and earn the bigger chunk of money. Trying to be equal, raise kids, run a household and earn money. We lost something essential. We end up arguing about chores and many couples divorce because they can't communicate over this kind of stuff. Being too busy with these tasks to see the bigger picture in our relationship.

Kelly: 33:26

Yeah. And I think, I think the struggle is it's not just communication. It's finding agreement. That's the thing that's missing. And I think in our world today, there's a real tendency to, if you will, throw rocks at each other. Or verbally, you know, complain or assault or belittle or whatever, rather than listening and building a common ground and saying, let's figure out how to make this work. And in a home, you know, when I'm talking to a couple before they get married and I do weddings too. And so I'll talk with them and meet with them for, you know, a few sessions prior to that. One of the things we talk about is who's going to do what. And so you need to have that conversation, you know, are you both going to earn income? Okay, that's fine. Well, you still need to go grocery shopping. When and how are you going to do that? If you have kids, who's gonna, you know, how are you going to manage that? If they're going to school, what about the transportation? If they're in a daycare, you know, whatever the situation may be. But when I think what needs to happen is that we need to see our relationships. As an equal partnership, if you will, that we both have strengths and weaknesses, and we both have areas that we can contribute. So I'm going to do some, and there's an expectation or a request for you to contribute. Now it can be completely different, but if you, if you ask me, or they need to ask each other, how are we going to make this work? Well, it works when both. Parties contribute in some way and you may have an arrangement where, Hey, the man says, listen, I can earn a lot of money, but I'm because of this job that I have or this business that I'm running or whatever, but I will not be able to cook clean or anything else because I'm going to focus there. And so is that okay with you? And she says, yes, that's okay with me. If you'll let me. Stay at home or if you'll let me work part-time, so then I can cover all these other things. So when there's, when we come together as equals, then we don't need to prove anything. We don't need to stake out, if you will, our, you know what we, we don't need to defend our turf is the saying. I'm not sure if you understand what I mean by that And then we can cooperate and collaborate. And if you're better at something than I am. Go for it. Do it. I'm better at certain things than my wife is, but she's way better at a lot of stuff than I am, especially with her medical training. So, you know, I, gosh, my granddaughter was over here spending the day as sick and I gave her the wrong dose of the Tylenol. And my wife's like, well, why did you not give me anyways? I didn't know. So read the box and you know, I didn't overdose it. I underdosed it was the problem. I know enough not to overdose by the way, but

Roula: 36:37

when we're in love, we don't think about these conversations because everything seems possible. Even as boyfriend and girlfriend arguments happen, they are unresolved because love and passion are taken over. They carry into the marriage. Is it possible to seek coaching before living together and who's going to listen to such an advice? A relationship could be saved if this happened.

Kelly: 37:04

I absolutely agree with you Rula. The thing that I think we need to understand is that being married successfully is a skill That needs to be learned and mastered. Things have changed and maybe it was different for our parents or our grandparents, our society is different. Our lifestyles are different. I'm not sure, but I know that as a husband, I, especially when my wife and I went through a difficult time in our marriage and it hit almost, we were at, maybe had been married maybe 25 years. And you would think we would have had it all figured out by then, but we didn't. I, we went through a very difficult season. And I had to rethink everything that I was doing. I had to look at, in fact, one of the big lessons as a takeaway is that I remember praying and asking God to change my wife. God, just show her that she's wrong. Show her that I'm right. Help me to persuade her. And I laugh at it now at the arrogance that I was under at that moment. Because it was. Because really the answer was. You know, not God changed my wife, but God changed me. What do I need to do? What, how do I need to improve? And what I was missing was the skill of listening and understanding. And we were on two different, we were going two different directions and not only just not happy with each other. We were, we were. Getting farther and farther apart. And it was producing a lot of pain, a lot of disagreement, a lot of disconnection and a lot of, yeah, our marriage was, was slowly, what's the word I'm looking for dissolving maybe, and, and so it took. I think both of us, you know, willing to say, what do I need to do differently? And so i'm a big believer in if you want to be successfully married And so the subtitle of my book is how to have the lifelong marriage that you really want Really what I look at is okay if you want this to last a lifetime What do you need to learn and what do you need to be committed to? And so I absolutely agree with you that I think some of the assumptions that we make when we're early in a relationship is that, yeah, everything's great and we're going to figure this out and there's not going to be any problems. And I'm sorry, that's just not reality. Every marriage gets tested, every marriage or every relationship. gets tested. And it's just because we're there to individuals that are being married and we all have our struggles and our issues, our fears, our pride, our desires. And it's, it's all about blending those two things together. And I think we need to re look at our assumptions and recognize that maybe if I got some education here or training. There would be a better, you know, a better outcome. And so I like to talk and give couples, I either call them skills or I call them tools. And when I say that it's all about, Hey, here's a better thing that you could do, which will produce a better outcome and have more agreement and we'll get you where you want to be in your relationship. Do something different next time. For example, if, if anger is a big issue and it is for a lot of couples, We get angry, and then out of that anger, we yell, we scream, and we say things that we regret. And, I mean, I've talked to couples, they're throwing things at each other. And, I mean, it's just, you know, it's not a healthy dynamic because what you're doing is causing more damage, and you're not resolving the issue. So, the tip is simple. Calm down first. It's not rocket science. I didn't even make it up. It's just as common sense, but they need to, and then they say, well, how? So then I do give them a tip. I say this easiest way to calm down. When you're upset, you walk away. I'm holding up a bottle of water. Can you see it? Yes. And have a drink of water. I also get to serve as the chaplain for a local police department here in my community. And one of the things, you'll even see this in the movies, the police officers, when someone's really upset or angry, they'll say, here, have, have a drink. And they'll give them a cup of coffee or some water or something. And it, it physiologically gets that person to calm down. It works like magic. Try it. Next time you're angry, walk away, have a drink of water. I guarantee you it will change how you feel. Just a simple thing. And there's a reason for it. I don't want to get into the science behind it, but there's a reason physiologically why it works. And, and so it's a tip. It's a, it's a suggestion. Hey, next time this happens, do this instead and see what, you know, happens after that. And then I'll talk to them a week later or two weeks and they'll be like,

Roula: 42:14

Oh,

Kelly: 42:14

it worked.

Roula: 42:16

We're going to ask the listeners to test it. Everyone who is listening, just grab a glass of water or bottle of something, drink something that is not alcoholic to calm down.

Kelly: 42:30

Yes, I did have one wife say, well, can it be an alcohol, you know, can I have a beer or a glass of wine? And I said, probably not. You can have that later once you've resolved things. You can have it together. Exactly. Yeah. Have a glass of wine together. Exactly right. But not. Not when you're in the midst of

Roula: 42:50

it. Always thought that I'm a feminist. And now that I know better, I just want voice of men and women to be heard equally. There is so much more that is destroying us if we don't just get up and say, okay, we just have to work together. And Just stop it.

Kelly: 43:16

Yeah, I think so as well. And the, you know, the whole attitude of men being, you know, superior or always right, or it's, you know, you have to do it my way. It doesn't work and, and it's a cultural stereotype that I think doesn't work anymore. You know, some may say, well, it's in the Bible and I'm like, no, it's really not. You know, I don't think it is because when I read the Bible and the verses that I look at in terms of marriage, it's all about husband serving and giving and you know, a big part of that is listening.

Roula: 43:59

You want to take me with you now in the part of Winning in our agreements when when 50 50. It's a partnership. How can we win together?

Kelly: 44:12

Fantastic. That's I think that's really what the goal should be. And as we decide to work together, you know, men and women to manage our households to build a significant relationship to have a family as husbands and wives. And so it's it's learning to create win win. Versus win lose. Let me describe win lose. Win lose is a situation where one person says, I'm getting what I want, and the other person feels like I'm not getting what I want. Now the problem with that, whenever, whoever loses, two things can happen. One is that there's going to be resentment that's built up over time. Well, you always get what you want. And I never do. And that's going to make that person angry eventually. And then maybe they'll explode or maybe they'll just say, that's it, I'm done. I want out. And they leave the relationship. The other thing that happens is what I call resignation. Resignation is where they just stop caring. So her husband says, yeah, what do you want for dinner? Or where do you want to eat tonight? If we go to a nice restaurant, where would you like to go? And she says, it doesn't matter. Well, yeah, it does. No, because regardless of what I say, you're going to pick something else because you always do. So, so I'm not even gonna, you just pick wherever you want. I give up. That's resignation. And once again, that produces a lot of resentment and bitterness over time. And then it's, it creates, if it's the husband that's always winning, it creates then a dynamic where he's going to get bored. It's like, you never give me your opinion. You never tell me what you want. I'm trying to please you. She goes, no, you're not really, but that's what you think. You tell yourself you are, but you're really not because you never really consider my opinion. And so it's a very unhealthy dynamic in a relationship. So a win win agreement is this, is that both my wife and I come to a place of here's our plan of action or our course of action, here's what we have decided to do, and we are both equally pleased with the direction that we have decided or the actions that we have decided to take. So how do you get there? Easier said than done. Let me give you a couple of tips on how to get there. And this is in my book on the chapter that's entitled, Become One With Each Other. It's chapter two. And so, a couple of things that would do. The first thing, a couple of steps I should say. The first step is to have an attitude of love. By that I mean, you really want to think about Where do you want your relationship to go? What do you see as what is your desired outcome here? Do you want to be close? Do you want to have intimacy emotionally as well as physically? Do you want, or do you want there to be distance and disagreement and division? So if you want love, if you want to be closer to each other, have that attitude about what do I need to do that will help us get in agreement? All right, I want to be close to you. I want us to agree. The second step is to choose to give and serve. Okay, in other words, start asking yourself, What can I give here that will make my wife or my husband happy? It's not just about me getting what I want, because if I do that, it's going to end up in win lose. The third one then is, and I think this is the most important, is called seek to understand. So, understanding is the goal. Listening is the method. We think what's wrong is that we don't listen to each other. Well, that's true, but you could listen without understanding. Because that happens a lot. So what do I mean by that? Is that when you're, so most of us, myself included, when we listen, we have the goal in mind to reply. What am I going to say when my wife stops talking? Right? So what we need to do is say, I want to understand what she needs, what she's afraid of, what she wants. What she is complaining about, how I've made her angry, what she wants to see for whatever it is, the topic. It could be because I may, I failed and made a mistake, or it could be because she's upset with her boss, or she's concerned about one of our kids or our grandkids. She's coming to me with a significant You know, issue or conversation. It's more than just, you know, would you buy some milk? Okay, this is different. This is deeper than milk. Oh, absolutely. Much deeper. So I want to focus on understanding. And so the way the best way to do that, or an easy way that I like to teach couples, and I do it myself, is that I say, when she's done, I'm going to repeat back to her what I just heard her say. Okay. But I'm going to try to do it in a way, so when, where I express her emotions. So, empathy is trying to feel what someone else is feeling, alright? And so, if she's upset or hurt, I'm going to put myself in her, this is the mental game I play with myself. I put myself in her shoes. What would I feel like if I was going through that? And what is she saying? What is she trying to communicate? What is her concerns? What is the issue here? And then, when she pauses or stops, I may have a question if I don't understand. But then I'll say something like, here's what I hear you saying. That you're really angry. Because your boss gave this position to a coworker who's not as qualified. I'm just making something up. Who's not as qualified as you and hasn't been with a company as long as you. And yet you, and you were really disappointed because you were hoping that you would get the promotion promotion or the position. And then I'll ask a question. Is that it? And not in a dismissive manner. Well, I like, is that it? Yeah, more than a confirmation. Firm, I understood you. Right, please. Yeah. And she'll be like, no, that's not really what I'm concerned about. It's not, it's not that I'm jealous of the other coworker. It's more that, and then she further clarifies. So then I'll do it again. So when the reason, so that's just one way. Um, the way to get to a win win agreement is I need to understand your Perspective on this question on this issue on this decision. What do you want? What are you afraid of? What are you? What do you? What is your desire here? Tell me what you see. That's another word for perspective. Tell me what you see is going on and what you think we should do. And then as she expresses that and I'm listening to understand that I'm going to repeat it back to her with the emotion if I can. Thank you. And then I'm going to say, is that kind of where you're coming from? Is that it? And she's going to say, yeah, that's it. Then it's my turn. So this is what a couple does together to get to win win. You each takes turns. One person expresses, the other person focuses on understanding. And this sounds really complicated, but it takes longer to explain than it does to do, depending on the depth of the issue.

Roula: 52:03

What you just said now about the sit, describing the situation, what's causing the issue and is when one of the couples is telling their annoyance or their pain point, the other one wants to solve it or makes that person feel like they're not doing enough to solve their own problem. This makes it boiling point. And the approach you just described takes away this boiling point and put more love and compassion.

Kelly: 52:35

Exactly. And you, you, you said a couple of things in there that are critical for your listeners to get. First off, is that the tendency for most guys that I know, myself included, the default setting, when my wife brings me a problem, I go into what I call fix it mode, solution, remedy. Here's what you should do. Here's the answer. If I was me, I would do this. And, and oftentimes we don't even understand what the problem is and because we're not really listening, we're just assuming that we know and our solution may not work, but we're going to give it anyways and that's really not probably what your wife or your husband is looking for in that moment. Okay, it might be. So the key there is to wait until they ask, what do you think I should do? Yeah, sometimes my wife will do that. What do you think I should do? Mm-Hmm. A lot of times though, she's not looking for an answer, so ask yourself this. Have you ever been in a conversation where you're explaining something that you're struggling with and the other person goes into fix it mode and you walk away not feeling understood, and it's not even very helpful, and you kind of think to yourself, well, that was a mistake. Next time I'm gonna go to somebody else.

Roula: 53:51

I completely check out. Emotionally and presence. Everything checks out in me.

Kelly: 53:58

Exactly.

Roula: 53:58

What would your wife or my husband want me to do or to act or to say in a conversation that they feel they're not getting out of it? Or am I asking this question too early?

Kelly: 54:11

No, no, that's a good question too. So, so how the instead of going into fix it mode. Okay, so one part of my career has been a big part of my career has been helping people with what? How do I want to describe it? Dealing with significant loss. And I'm talking about people dying. I do a lot of funerals and I talk to a lot of people that have lost children, their husbands, their parents, their brothers and I mean, they're devastated by this. Okay. And, and sometimes you can tell that their spouse doesn't know how to help them in their time of loss. Okay. And it happens to all of us. For some though, it's very traumatic. For some, it is just absolutely devastating. And both in my experience with, that's what I do at the police department. I'm, I'm called a chaplain and I come along with the police officers to help families in our community that are experiencing these kinds of things. And so in my, what I've learned is that when you're in pain and it doesn't have to be a severe pain, it can be a minor pain, but you're still in pain. What you want is to be understood. Rather than fixed. So how do I do that with my wife when she's in pain? I listen. I repeat back. I hold her hand and I let her just process what's going on. Here's the key. Guys, if you're listening to this, you want to help your wife because you care about your wife. You want her to feel better. You want to make a difference, right? Listening. Here's the key. Listening is helping.

Roula: 55:58

Is it the same message for the woman?

Kelly: 56:01

Yeah. Cause my wife will do the same for me. She will go into fix it mode.

Roula: 56:06

Oh, okay.

Kelly: 56:08

Yeah. She will do the same thing to me that I sometimes do to her and I don't always appreciate it. But when she just listens and lets me deal with the pain, okay. And is there to support me. Then I feel understood and I feel loved and I feel cared for. So it works both ways. It's, it's universal. Like you said earlier, you made the point that sometimes we need to practice these things because these things seem hard or difficult to master and we need to work at them. Absolutely true. That's why they're called a skill. Whenever you learn a new skill, like one of the things that I like to do is play golf. Okay. When I first started playing golf, I, it was a disaster. I didn't, I felt weird. I didn't know how to stand. I didn't know how to swing. I did certainly didn't know how to hit the ball. It's going all over the place. And then I got somebody to coach me, do it like this. And it felt awkward. It felt strange, but the more I did it, and then I started seeing the results, the better at it I got and the more coaching I got now, I'm not a great golfer. But I have fun with it and I'm better than I used to be. So anyways, it works the same way with these kinds of things. Whenever you learn a new skill, it feels awkward. It feels difficult, but you keep working at it and you get some input on how to do it and you'll get, you'll figure this out. It's not a tough concept, but it does go against kind of what we've been experienced or trained to do. So learning how to listen, because the natural default, like I said, is we don't want to listen, we just want to reply, or we don't want to understand. So it's learning how to understand, then that opens up the door. so that we can have great conversations and come up with win win agreements.

Roula: 58:01

My personal experience has been about practicing a lot with my husband. I've reached a point where there's so much love between us, there is no hurt anymore. Now I can tell him I have something to share and just want his listening ear without seeking advice. It took us a long time to get here, where he doesn't feel the need to give advice, and I can feel vulnerable and just share what's on my mind. I also learned to respect timeouts. Before, taking a break felt so offensive to me. He's walking away from my conversation. But now I understand that actually it's very helpful. One of us needs to calm down. Arguing successfully comes from a lot of practice.

Kelly: 58:49

Exactly. And you know where that, that desire it, it, when you, when you say being offended, if you take a timeout, okay, really what that's fueled by is fear because the fear underlying that is I'm afraid you're going to walk away and you're not going to come back. In, in English or in America, we have a phrase that says, we're just going to sweep it under the rug. Do you, do you know that phrase? Okay. So if there's a, some dirt or, or whatever, you lift the rug up and you sweep it under and you put the rug back down. That's the idea behind that, that idea there. And so when there's an issue or a struggle or an argument and the other person walks away without it being resolved. The fear is nothing will change and all we're going to do is sweep it under the rug and just pretend that it's not there. And that's very valid and real if that's what the other person is going to do. When you do a timeout correctly, it is exactly what you said. It is a promise to return after calming down. And now you can have a constructive, confrontational conversation. What I like to call it, it's going to be productive when you're angry and the other person, especially if you're both angry, nothing that you say is going to help. It just won't. It's going to make. things worse. And it's not that anger is bad. Okay? There's a verse in the Bible that says, be angry, but don't sin. And, and absolutely anger is not bad. However, the way we express it, um, in an unhealthy way, um, that's where it becomes almost like revenge. I am so hurt by what you do. I want to hurt you. And that's where it becomes sinful. That's where it becomes damaging. So with our words or throwing stuff at him and then, and then after you, you calm down and it's like, Oh my goodness. You know, I wish I hadn't said that. And our hearts are filled with regret because we did things wrong. We did things in a hurtful way, I should say, not in a loving way. So now you got to go clean it up. You got to go apologize. You got to go, you know, ask for forgiveness. And then hopefully you're okay with that. But, you know, I have talked to couples and I've had wives tell me, I don't know that I can ever forgive my husband. The damage is just too great. So, you know, fortunately, this one lady that told me that she has forgiven her husband and they're still married, but it, it is, we got to be careful because we can hurt the ones that we love and we can definitely damage and destroy our marriages if we're not careful.

Roula: 1:01:40

There is also so much that you can practice, but if after practicing things are not moving forward, someone is going to make the decision to leave. It has to be fruitful.

Kelly: 1:01:54

Yeah, yeah, exactly. But I think if both parties are willing to try and and get some, you know, learn to do it differently. I think things can be safe and turned around.

Roula: 1:02:05

So many of us don't talk about this topic. We pretend our lives are perfect and shove the issues under the rug to look at our behavior and how we can do it differently. Be vulnerable. And it's so much about love. When I feel an argument is boiling in me, before I let it take the best of me, I think of all the good things my husband does and all the good things he is. Now, this is my glass of water.

Kelly: 1:02:37

Yeah, that's great.

Roula: 1:02:44

I am thankful for your presence here and this fantastic conversation. The purpose of this episode is to help couples communicate effectively, grow together after each argument, show appreciation, and feel the trust to be vulnerable. How can you help listeners who are getting excited about making a change to the better in their relationship without per se seeking counseling?

Kelly: 1:03:11

I do marriage coaching and marriage coaching is not counseling. I'm not a therapist, but what I like to do is help couples learn skills to communicate better, solve problems, understand each other, and really create, you know, that dynamic, healthy kind of relationship that's going to last. I was a pastor for almost 36 years at a church here in Southern California. And just stepped out of that position. I don't like to use the word retired because I'm busier now than ever. I'm very open to, yeah, doing things, you know, different time zones, places around the world, as long as they feel comfortable in English, that would be the only, you know, requirement, I guess. Um, and then I'm giving away my book. So here's my book available for free anywhere in the world on a digital download. And then as well, um, be very open to, um, scheduling a free, um, life slash relationship slash marriage coaching. Some of the people that come to me for help are just looking for life guidance kind of issues. Um, others are looking for relationship kind of, you know, assistance and then of course the marriages. So anything, anything along those lines is what I'm available to do.

Roula: 1:04:30

How to connect to Kelly and the link to his book. You will find them in the show notes. Before we wrap up, I hope that this episode full of practical tips on how to seek understanding, communicate effectively, and find common ground to build a strong, lasting relationship has been helpful to you and to your partner. I don't know if it makes it easier to know that you are not alone and almost every couple go through these agreements or disagreements. Those who say they don't. They might be sweeping them all under the rug. On the next episode, my guest is Terry Short. She's the author of the book, The Words We Choose. In my opinion, this is a guide to know what to say to reflect the truth of our values and our intentions. Stay tuned. I will see you in two weeks. Thank you for listening to today's episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with your friends and family. And ask them to subscribe. Leaving a rating and review on platforms like Apple Podcast can also help boost the podcast. Ranking your support through word of mouth is greatly appreciated. If you feel I'm encouraging you to tell your story, contact me or ruler at the life affairs podcast com. You will see my email in the show notes. I'll see you next time.