Roula: [00:00:00] This episode is explicit. We talk about sex, sexual content and sexual pleasure.

Roula: That's my cat. I think he likes the episode. We discuss all the good things and naughty things, which for some might be too provocative, and for others might seem mild and leave them wanting more. It's an informative conversation, full of communication tips and self discoveries. It is erotic in nature and purpose.

Roula: I hope this information helps you decide whether to continue listening or wait for the next episode related to life without the sexual aspect. Welcome to the Life Affairs Podcast. This is a place where we share life experiences and the many lessons learned by just living. Join me to immerse ourselves and take a closer look at the stories that shaped and defined us.

Roula: Just remember, [00:01:00] there's no judgment and lot of understanding on today's episode of the Life Affairs Podcast.

Roula: Great. You choose to listen further. You've made a wise decision and you will be rewarded. At the end, I'll share details about a free course that my guest is offering. Completely free. My husband and I took this course and I can't wait to tell you all about our experience. We had fun and we gathered a lot of information about each other.

Roula: All this while keeping our clothes on. Can't wait to tell you more.

Roula: Whether you have been in a long term relationship, or you are exploring your own sexuality, you are adventurous and kinky, or want to liberate yourself from the dictated norms of how to live your sexual life, this episode is thought [00:02:00] provocative. My guest and I will talk about understanding our sexual thinking and the sexual ideas around us by becoming highly effective communicators, diving into our deepest desires and discovering how our ego is our roadblock.

Roula: My guest will demonstrate to us that being open minded to new insights, we can reach a state of higher pleasure consciousness for ourselves and our partners. Meet my guest, Artemisia Devine. She is a sexual fantasy expert who teaches top sexperts how to turn fantasies into reality. Author of upcoming book, The Spirituality of Smut, The Surprising Wisdom of Sexual Fantasies.

Roula: She's a certified somatic sexologist with a BA in anthropology and experience as a former sex worker and professional dominatrix. She's a very curious person. [00:03:00] Her groundbreaking theory reveals that understanding story symbolism can transform fantasies into powerful real life experiences. And she doesn't mean by making these fantasies happen for real.

Roula: No, it's something deeper than this. You don't even have to do these fantasies in real life. If you want to take a quick pause and look up what somatic sexology is, go ahead. Otherwise, here we go with my first question. Like many others we know or we don't know about, I have sexual fantasies. I'm lucky to be able to share them with my husband.

Roula: Though many keep them to themselves, this to avoid making the other person feel uncomfortable or scared they'll be judged badly for having them. You, on the other hand, teach about sexual fantasies, their healing powers and the positive impact they have on [00:04:00] our lives. So let's start by telling me, what brought you into the sexual world?

Artemisia De Vine: Sexual fantasies of the taboo topics of our deep, dark, hidden, secret crevices of our minds. Fascination. It's very interesting, don't you think? It's very interesting. By how our minds work. I'm absolutely, I've spent a lifetime being fascinated by the sexual and exploring it on personal levels and professional levels.

Artemisia De Vine: For 30 years now, because to me, people used to say, my friends used to say, don't you talk about anything other than sex? And I'm like, No.

Artemisia De Vine: Because it's so interesting to me. So some people really like trains. Some people really like understanding, you know, the mechanics of relationships. I'm not even that interested in the mechanics of relationships so much, unless it's in [00:05:00] relationship to how the sex works. I'm, I'm fascinated by how the mind works.

Artemisia De Vine: I'm fascinated by consciousness. I'm fascinated by like, I'm, I'm still got that childish amazement that we even exist at all. I still wake up every day and go, wow, I exist. This is incredible. What is, what does it mean to be human? What does it mean? Why are we like this? Why do we like these things? How come our brains work that way?

Artemisia De Vine: Why do we interact this way? It's just a fascinating topic for me. And sexual fantasies. Confused the hell out of me. I didn't understand them. There was, there seemed to be such so contradictory. What made me sexually excited was at odds with how I wanted to behave in the outside world and how I wanted others to treat me in the outside world.

Artemisia De Vine: I get very confused and say, I am a feminist. Why on [00:06:00] earth would I want to be, you know, on my knees? Giving oral sex and being called names. So I wanted to understand why there was this, this thing at odds. Why is it exciting, for instance, for somebody to get excited about cheating? Like it's really sexually exciting to cheat.

Artemisia De Vine: And yet the last thing they want to do is be cheated on or cheat in real life. Like they're just loyal. They wouldn't want to do that. Why is there this contradiction between what is sexually exciting and what is not? the best way to behave in the outside world. So I put my, my different lenses to work.

Artemisia De Vine: I'm trained as an anthropologist, but I never ended up working in there as an anthropologist officially, but I instead, I ended up working as a sex worker and as a professional dominatrix for well over a decade. And Because I have this natural [00:07:00] curiosity about how everything works, how people work, I couldn't help but look deeper at what was happening in my, in the interactions between me and my clients.

Artemisia De Vine: And I ended up being paid to become the sexual fantasy of thousands of people. And when you live out somebody's sexual fantasy, you're in it with them in the moment when they're feeling it. what they're feeling and you're in there with the bodily fluids and the sweat and the moaning and the groaning and the emotion and the whole lot of it.

Artemisia De Vine: You can see how these sexual fantasies are creating an effect on them. They're taking them somewhere inside themselves. And I got really curious about that. I could not leave well alone. It's like, oh, if I understand these fantasies, I can create even more powerful experiences for people. This is something that's happening.

Artemisia De Vine: This is taking, and it's really [00:08:00] valuable. where they're going is really valuable. Like they might be having a fantasy that seems to be on the surface perverse and it doesn't make any sense and you know all sex is ridiculous really when you look at it from the outside but but but when we created a really consensual container a really clear place where we could play with the essence of the fantasy people started having really powerful experiences.

Artemisia De Vine: My sex work clients who thought that what they wanted was a blonde with big boobs. They thought that's, that's what was going to be the source of excitement for them. When I sat them down on my red velvet couch and had a little tea ceremony with them and asked them all about their sexual fantasies and their past peak experiences, I listened to it through the lens of how a story works.

Artemisia De Vine: How do we? All, because all [00:09:00] stories are about transformation. Every single, like if you go to the movies, you do not want to watch that movie unless the character transforms from the beginning to the end. You're not interested. You might, you're not conscious that that's what makes it interesting to you, but you're not interested unless that character has to go through a whole lot of obstacles to, if they have a desire, a goal they're trying to get to, let's say they're trying to get to Las Vegas in time to win their wife back before, before they're, she marries somebody else.

Artemisia De Vine: And it's the most of the on the surface, but the story is all about the road trip and all of the ridiculous things that go wrong and how they overcome it to get there. But underneath the surface, it's about the character transforming and becoming emotionally able to be worthy of winning his wife back or worthy of letting her go.

Artemisia De Vine: It's all and we're not interested unless we are able to relate to. The [00:10:00]character and their transformation. I'm like, oh, sexual fantasies are just stories. Sexual fantasies are also about transformation. They're actually about taking us from one state of consciousness to another. They change us. Oh, if I start looking at them and look at breaking them down and the mechanisms down so I can see how they work, I can use those same psychological mechanisms to create really powerful real life sex or BDSM experiences for people.

Artemisia De Vine: Because it's not actually the big boobs that they're and the blonde that that is the most important thing for them. It's actually. Uh, the psychological state to move from one state to the other. And it's from moving from closed off, to open and vulnerable. Sexual fantasies are the [00:11:00] exact story that overcome our ego's natural resistance to being vulnerable so that we can let go.

Artemisia De Vine: And lose all of our dignity and bounce around with all of our fat bits flapping everywhere and have a great time. 

Roula: Yeah, many of us want to have fun. And then sexual fantasies, they're often our deepest, darkest secrets. We have to keep them hidden and never see the light of the day, at least that's how it feels.

Roula: Because we are raised and taught they're forbidden and perverse. But then, for some of us, a revelation hits. They're actually awesome. And as you described, transformative. Until that moment of discovery, we don't have the courage to let them out. Help me dive into this. Take me on this transformative journey.

Roula: Why do people still feel embarrassment or why do people feel [00:12:00] embarrassment and shyness when sharing their sexual fantasies with their own partners?

Artemisia De Vine: It is something that is taboo and it is something that even people who've been working on their sexual shame and really claiming their sexuality for years still feel this rush of embarrassment and shyness when they're going to tell their partner about their sexual fantasies. And I believe that's because the whole function of the sexual fantasy is to overcome your ego's resistance.

Artemisia De Vine: And your ego never wants to be looked at directly. It always goes, Oh, no, that's embarrassing. Don't look at me. No, no, no. And so even, even with society, even if you had a society where it was completely sex positive, cause I've lived that I've lived being in small communities where It's completely sex positive.

Artemisia De Vine: There's no shame. You can be as kinky as you want. [00:13:00] And still, this psychological mechanism comes up when it comes time to talking about them, because there's certain parts of our brains that don't want to be looked at directly. So let me explain a little bit further. So that gives you a bit more context, otherwise it's not going to land properly.

Artemisia De Vine: So I already said that sexual fantasies are there to overcome our ego resistance. Egos keep us in a sense of self. They keep us separate. They give you an identity of self versus other. I am me, not you. And I'm different to you in this way. I have an self identity. This is how I get my self worth. And here, this is where I am in my social status.

Artemisia De Vine: Egos, a whole job, a healthy, normal, functioning, non traumatized ego is there to To give [00:14:00] you a sense of self and protect that sense of self very vigilantly. So when you feel really shy, uh, asking somebody else on a date, like imagine that you find someone really the waiter at a cafe, really gorgeous. And you want to ask them out.

Artemisia De Vine: Can you feel immediately your heart start to race like you feel desire drawn to them and also at the same time, there's another part in conflict with that that say no, don't do that. You might get laughed at. You might get rejected. You might, your sense of self might be threatened. So that part that's resisting, that's your ego saying no, don't take any risks that would make you vulnerable ever, right?

Artemisia De Vine: That my job is to keep you safe from any form of vulnerability that might be a threat to you. But this other organ of the psyche, this other part of your consciousness that's inside of you, is creating a real strong desire. Because even as you're going, no, I'm not going to ask about that's too embarrassing.

Artemisia De Vine: Another part of you, even though you're looking over here, pretending you're not interested, is completely, your attention is [00:15:00] really noticing everything that, that, that, Cute waiter is doing and you can feel cool to them and everything else has disappeared. It's a magnetic draw to them. So you've got this internal conflict between your desire and your ego and you're like, Oh, How am I, how am I going to overcome this resistance so that I can actually be game to ask them out, take the risk of showing this part of it.

Artemisia De Vine: Cause that's what, that's super vulnerable to do that. Like I'm like, Ooh, how am I going to do that? Uh, and it's both exciting and scary. And this is, this is the same with all sex, really. Every single time you want to reveal yourself to somebody else, You go through that same process, and it's not just revealing your body, getting naked in front of someone can make you have the same feelings, but also revealing your emotions.

Artemisia De Vine: You're just letting your emotion of, of, of pure enjoyment out without any guardedness that can feel vulnerable, sharing them, [00:16:00] your sexual fantasy, sharing your inner psychology with somebody else can feel really vulnerable. And that ego is going to say, no, don't do that. My job is to protect you, keep you inside the castle walls and safe.

Artemisia De Vine: But when you're inside the castle walls and safe, you can't connect. When you're stuck being I, you cannot be we, you cannot. And desire comes along and it says, oh, come on, ego darling, come on my darling, I can seduce you out of those castle walls. I've got the perfect story to tell. I'm going to coax you out,

Roula: So do you think our. Ego out of the castle. Help me figure out how it gets translated. And here are my thoughts. Getting our ego out of the castle goes into different Shapes and options. It can be cheating, can be watching porn, [00:17:00] it can be talking about it and feeling rejected. Getting this ego out of the castle is tough.

Roula: What's the best way to approach it? Oh, I love your question. 

Artemisia De Vine: Good question. Okay. So there is a bit of an art form to it. And I had to, I spent years working out how to do this, by the way, because every single client who came to me resisted telling me the truth of what really turned them on. They would, there were certain things that were socially acceptable for them to say, but there were certain things they couldn't even see themselves.

Artemisia De Vine: And I had to develop an Art form, forget the information I needed out of them. And I got, I nailed it by the end, by the way, I just nailed it. I could get all sorts of things out of people they didn't even realize was there in a very short period of time. But, but it took me a long time to be able to figure out how to do that, but that's not, that's what I teach people how to do now for themselves, for their, for their, for their, um, non paid partners.

Artemisia De Vine: And, and I teach professionals as [00:18:00] well. I'm actually going to share something at the end that's going to help you begin that process. I'm going to give you a little freebie and it's called the Celeb Swoon Technique. And it's a little mini course that I have coming up for you, which will actually help you become aware.

Artemisia De Vine: Cause the very first step is you have to become aware of the psychological mechanisms in your story so that you know how to ask for them. And we're not aware of them. At the moment. So, and once you know how it works, it becomes a lot easier to ask for it, for it in a way that's not going to get rejected because it makes much more sense.

Artemisia De Vine: It's really threatening to go, Hey honey, I want a threesome. Why aren't I good enough for you? Oh my God, like, you know, the, the, the, the, the natural, you know, explosion that happens and the rejection that comes out of it when we don't understand what the fantasies actually represent. That's when it becomes a personal threat.

Artemisia De Vine: But when you understand how they work, oh my God, you can say, Oh, this is how my mind gets outside the castle walls. This is how I can let my ego go. And I [00:19:00] can just kind of. Fully enter into the, so what we think we want is not actually what we want. That's just a symbol. Like just like all stories are symbols of something deeper that's going on.

Artemisia De Vine: So most people think that like my earlier client that I mentioned before, they thought that what they would become satisfied by someone who was busty and blonde, and yet they would go and book a sex worker who was blonde and was busty and looked exactly like their type. And then sometimes it would work.

Artemisia De Vine: And sometimes they'd be like, why isn't it working? I'm not feeling the thing. I thought I would. Was feeling because they were focusing on the wrong thing. They're bringing the wrong part of the fantasy to life. When you understand how symbolism works, you understand what the symbol represents. And that's the thing that's much more important than.

Artemisia De Vine: than the surface level. And this is how the little freebie that I'm going to offer you so that you can start becoming aware of your own sexual psychology so that you can begin the conversation with your partner. And you can even do this with your partner. This is a way to make it less embarrassing for you because you don't have to [00:20:00] confess your actual fantasies together to do this exercise.

Artemisia De Vine: It's non explicit and you can keep your clothes on. You can even do it on your commute on the way to work, but you can begin to share. With each other, your deepest psychology of what makes you turned on. And you do this by bringing up, you know, doing a Google image search of a celebrity that you find swoon worthy, somebody who gets you a little bit.

Artemisia De Vine: And you look at the Google image and even though they're the same body and the same face and the same age and they're good quality pictures, don't pick bad quality pictures, pick all good ones. And. You will find some of those pictures more attractive to you, more magnetic than others. Why? Right? Why? It's going to be in the body language, in the, in the symbolism of the moment, I'm going to walk you through how to notice what's actually going on in that attraction.

Artemisia De Vine: You think you're attracted to it because they're your [00:21:00] physical type. And you even know they're your physical type. They're not always attractive to you. They're only sometimes attractive to you. And then when they're playing certain roles, taking on certain. Certain attributes for you, and that's going to reveal an awful lot so that you can do that at my fantasy is.

Artemisia De Vine: com. Uh, it's the celeb swing technique where I can walk you through that, but let's give you some more things. Let's have a conversation about it more. So you can even, even learn some things right now. The

Artemisia De Vine: conversation. And the first step is understanding how they work, understanding the story inside them. And that means understanding the power dynamic in it, understanding how your really clever mind has taken what your ego fears about being vulnerable, wove it [00:22:00] into a little story, a little fantasy, and then created the exact perfect solution to that fear so that you can let go.

Artemisia De Vine: That's what sexual fantasies are. They're genius stories that include your fears and alchemize them, transform them. Poison plus antidote ends up with the exact end result that is opposite to what you feared. So for example, if a, if you're somebody who is receiving Receiving oral sex and you're, you're enjoying it.

Artemisia De Vine: It feels good. It's nice. And yet some part of you might be concerned that you are taking up too much space. This is to do with your self identity and your self worth. Parts of your ego guards. I'll go into that another time, but it's, it's linked to your ego resistance. You're worried that you're taking up too much space, too much time.

Artemisia De Vine: Should I go, should I [00:23:00] go and give back now? You know, are they bored? Are they doing this out of obligation? You know, am I, am I allowed to keep, keep going? Take it? Shouldn't I give now? Like, I better stop. I better cut this short. The level of pleasure that I could possibly feel, I better put a lid on it and give back now.

Artemisia De Vine: It's my turn to give back. And, you know, I'm a bit worried that I'm boring them, that my genitals aren't interesting to them, that maybe they smell. I don't know. All of these things stop you from letting go and keeping you inside the castle walls and you're not letting go and just purely experiencing. A sexual fantasy for somebody like that might be something along the lines of, oh, somebody breaks into the house like a burglar and ties them up and forces them to receive R06 until, until the robbers Dumb.

Artemisia De Vine: Now there's no one on the planet who wants to be raped. That is not a thing. We do not want real rape at all. This is not an [00:24:00] instruction of how to behave in the outside world. But as a consensual game that takes you on a psychological journey and creates an effect in you, it's genius. Like if you can do this safely within a container, what happens is, is this primal part of you, if it's not logical, This, this egoic part of you is convinced by the play, by the embodying of this psychology.

Artemisia De Vine: Right, so it's convinced, oh my goodness, if this burger broke in. and tied me up and forced me to receive pleasure just exactly the way i like

Artemisia De Vine: then then it's they're being selfish and if they're being selfish their needs are being met they really want to be here i don't need to look after them i don't need to caretake them Oh, I'm forced to receive the pleasure. I can take up as much space as I possibly can. Like, I'm, you know, you're forced to take up as long as you [00:25:00] need to, to really feel done, to feel satiated, to sink into that pleasure forever.

Artemisia De Vine: So it's created a little story where you are, it's permission giving to that particular part of your mind. And even know your play acting, cause it's consensual within a safe container with someone you trust. It is. Absolutely. The, the psychological effect is absolutely real. You drop, you go deep, you, you, you, your ego gets right out of the car seat, out of the, out of the car completely, and you've got another part of you, a bigger sense of self is still there.

Artemisia De Vine: Connecting and, and being intimate and, and just surrendering to the experience of the sensations. without any inhibitions. And this is what makes amazing sex. This is what makes amazing intimacy. This sharing this part of yourself. So if we can understand how your unique sexual psychology creates [00:26:00] safety for your unique ego, then we can create real life experiences that take you to the, to the fullest potential of your particular sexual expression entering into sometimes even so deep that it feels spiritual because you've you've so you've lost your sense of self your small sense of self and you've you now feel connected you feel merged with the other person you don't know where you finish and they begin and you feel connected with life itself when it can feel really profound it can feel astonishing and lots and lots of people who try and meditate to get to that state but we can get there through which is brilliant I think

Roula: You talk about intimacy and I like what you say. I experience it myself. When, together with my partner, we're not having sex but we're talking about our fantasies, or I'm talking about my fantasies, this alone brings me into [00:27:00] an incredible connection and joy by simply sharing my sexual fantasies when we're just sitting together or having novelty time together.

Roula: Our brain works in the most fascinating ways. And the elevated emotional happiness we are experiencing at the beginning of a relationship, this incredible feeling of being high, state of consciousness and happiness, it disappears after a few years or even a few months being together, living together.

Roula: They're dead sometimes. I hear couples saying they have been living as roommates for years and this breaks my heart. They justify it by saying they've seen it all, nothing is exciting anymore, they've been together for so long and they settle for it. Sex, one of the healthiest, the most motivating [00:28:00] and connecting part of our lives, becomes the least important.

Roula: So help me here to awaken up this conversation. What would it look like to keep the fire burning using our sexual fantasies so that we ignite the sexual fire between long term couples? 

Artemisia De Vine: I can tell you, I'm, I'm coaching all sorts of people all the time. But even recently people 40 years, married for 40 years.

Artemisia De Vine: And after learning the divinery method with me, which is is how I basically just my method that I've used in the divider with my clients teaching them how to bring it into their, into their life. Um, they said to me that they're experiencing more intimacy and more sexual pleasure than they ever had, even in their honeymoon period, 40 years in, because when you understand the psychological mechanisms that take you to that [00:29:00] state, you can activate that state again.

Artemisia De Vine: In the honeymoon period, the new relationship energy, you're relying on brain chemicals to project onto each other. You're not really seeing each other. It's rose colored glasses and you project onto them really easily. All of the psychological mechanisms you need them to be for you to let your guards down.

Artemisia De Vine: And it feels amazing. It's like a drug and it feels incredible. But then when those chemicals wear off, you don't know how to get there again. 40 years into the relationship and they are, they are now having the most intimate and satisfying sex that they've ever had because we're no longer relying on the happy chemicals of the new relationship energy.

Artemisia De Vine: The new relationship energy helps you project onto the other person the exact psychological mechanisms you need, your ego needs in order for you to let your guards down. But it is projection. It's not [00:30:00] actually really seeing the other person. It's rose colored glasses, right? And, and you can still learn to love in that phase, but initially that, that sex is not about connecting and seeing the person as they really are.

Artemisia De Vine: What happens when you, that those chemicals have worn off, the new relationship phase has finished, you can now. If you really understand how sexual fantasies work, how your unique sexual psychology, your patterning, your unique wiring works, the mechanisms within your story, you can now deliberately activate all of the things you need to get your guards to go down.

Artemisia De Vine: And it feels even more real, even more satisfying than the honeymoon period. So, What I do is teach it as part of the divinery method is how do you keep having ongoing deliberate play dates where you turn up and you focus on one person's unique erotic wearing at a [00:31:00] time and you create an experience together and you make plays together.

Artemisia De Vine: It's fun. It's delicious fun, right? Uh, and you explore and out of that exploration, you do this process that afterwards called panning for gold, which makes you become aware. Of what you need to do next. You're following them. You're following your internal wisdom. I'll teach you how to follow your own desire compass.

Artemisia De Vine: Follow the map of your sexual fantasies and keep creating perfect deliberate play dates that as they unfold, they reveal the next step. So you never ever. run out of things to play with and keep exploring. And of course, it doesn't feel the same as the new relationship energy. It's different, but people keep saying this is actually more satisfying than it ever was in the honeymoon period.

Artemisia De Vine: And it's, it's extraordinary. It's a deep self discovery together. Shared intimacy of [00:32:00] here is my internal workings. Here is the secret crevices of my soul and we are sharing them together in pleasure and play. Is there anything more intimate than that? 

Roula: There is in the couple, a person that wants to play and another one that probably have not got to this stage or think they don't have it in them, they don't care about it.

Roula: How, what's the mechanism to have this, this couple meet halfway and play together? 

Artemisia De Vine: W Yes, you're right. We absolutely need skills and it needs to be step by step. It's not something like where you just change it overnight. So I need to te teach my clients tools and, uh, to do things one step at a time. And often I end up working with people for six months before, before it all falls into place because there's quite a few things that need to change a whole lot of things, foundational beliefs, and all sorts of [00:33:00] things that need to change as well as skill building.

Artemisia De Vine: But there are ways to invite people in that don't feel threatening, even when their conscious mind is like, Oh no, that's not me at all. But if, if you invite somebody in the right way, they're like, Oh, that's not threatening. Oh, that sounds kind of interesting. Yes. Okay. I'll do that. That's good. And one of the ways.

Artemisia De Vine: I mean, it's, it's too hard for me to teach you the full technique without context here on a podcast. But one of the things that you can do is the panning for gold technique. And this is something that I came up with myself as part of the binary method. And it is after you've had an experience. And even if you haven't had a recent one, like you haven't had one for a while, but you've been talking about sex, which is great.

Artemisia De Vine: I want to get back to that part too, that you've been. You can remember a past experience of when you had a great time with that, with that, with your husband or with somebody else. So if you could remember and go, okay, [00:34:00] I, I'm going to pan for gold. about our sex life. I'm not going to focus on anything that is not working.

Artemisia De Vine: I'm going to find the sparks of gold that are. So when you pan for gold, you stick your pan in the river and you bring up a whole lot of sand and most of it is sand and there's a few specks of gold and you collect the pieces of gold. That's how people pan for gold and collect gold. So we want to do the same thing sexually.

Artemisia De Vine: We want to think about the sexual encounter and we bring it up. We don't focus on any of the sand. We only focus on what was working. Even if it was only partially working, it was only kind of getting you warm, not super hot, still focus on that sparkly, sparkly little thing and go, okay, what was happening in that moment?

Artemisia De Vine: What was happening? Let's just say that they were leaning against the door frame and they had a little hat on and they looked kind of a little bit cocky and they looked a little bit sure of themselves, and they were looking at you with a twinkle in their [00:35:00] eye. And they were just taking their time to walk in when you're already in the bed, and you're already in your lingerie on display and they've got their clothes on still.

Artemisia De Vine: And in that moment, the way they looked at you just got you going a little bit.

Artemisia De Vine: That was good. So you tell them, you say, Wow, that moment when you stood there like that and you describe the body language and the attitude that you think that they had in that moment towards you. And how you got to feel when you stood there looking at me a little bit cocky and so sure of yourself with that warm twinkle in your eye.

Artemisia De Vine: I got to feel a bit nervous. I got to feel as though I was being watched. It made me feel a little bit exposed because you were taking your time. You still had your clothes on and I had my lingerie on and that was kind of exciting to me. I felt I got to feel desired. I got to feel as though I was, I was the object of somebody you were going to chase.

Artemisia De Vine: You know, you were [00:36:00] a little bit primal and a little bit predator, but really confident and casual about it. So it felt safe. Let me describe what they were doing and how you got to feel. Because somebody else in that same instance would feel something different. So do not take it for granted. You have to actually explain that because you are then in that moment, communicating to them your unique sexual wire and you're saying, you're telling them what makes it hot for you.

Artemisia De Vine: And they now know, cause they, they do not know that they're going to be projecting some, their own ego story onto the moment. That's different. Trust me. It's always different. So tell them. And then at another step, this is important. This is where the magic happens. This is where you're bringing your fantasy in.

Artemisia De Vine: This is, in that moment when you looked at me with that twinkly cocky look on your face, I imagined you coming over and [00:37:00] pushing me backwards on the bed and holding my wrists down and biting my neck like a vampire. I imagine something small and actionable but it's perfect symbol of how your psychology works because in reality what they did is they walked over to you with glowing eyes and then they gently touched your featherly light to ignite all of your your nerve endings and they went into a worshipful state where they worshiped you as a goddess.

Artemisia De Vine: And that was lovely, but it did not create the right poison and antidote for your particular ego to let its guards down. So what you needed to do was train them by communicating in this little moment. You didn't even have to confess your whole step, the whole fantasy to them yet. And yet you're already training them.

Artemisia De Vine: You're already beginning to. So this is the process of all now. And if you hear that, if someone tells you that. You've now got information. You feel strong and powerful and confident to [00:38:00] know that they want this. You go, ooh. That's what they like. And you start getting creative thinking, Oh, I could do that same sort of thing in this way over here in this moment.

Artemisia De Vine: And you're giving each other your inner psychology to be able to start begin the process of unpacking each other's unique wiring and creating playful invitations with it.

Roula: Communication between the sheets is very important. You mentioned And it's true, sometimes we are touched in a way we don't desire. And because our communication is weak, as a couple or as lovers, it's not easy to say to the other person, this is how I would like to be touched, this doesn't turn me on, because they would feel rejected or not good enough.

Roula: It's complicated. [00:39:00] And, uh, with couples and married for a long time, We already have to work so much on our communication skills to be effective. You also work with psychologists and sexual therapists to help couples step up their game between the sheets and in their intimacy. How do you do this and why do they come to you for advice?

Roula: So 

Artemisia De Vine: sexologists and therapists don't have training in how the erotic mind works, other than through the lens of these are the options that they have been taught at university. Either that sex is something to do with your unfinished childhood or adolescent business, and you need to get therapy. And if you get therapy, then you get turned on by different things, and everything will magically get fixed.

Artemisia De Vine: Or they, they, But so it's pathologizing it, like you've got to undo your pathogenic beliefs about yourself and then your sex, and then your sex will work or they focus on, Oh, sex, sexual [00:40:00] fantasies are very normal and very healthy, but we don't understand how they work. We just don't judge them as long as you act them out consensually and don't do something ridiculous in real life.

Artemisia De Vine: They're fine. No problem. But they have no understanding of how they work and how to actually tap into the depth of them so that you can become an erotic artist. You can start playing with this and creating with this deliberately for the rest of your life as a form of self discovery. So, so even though I am Like I just ended up being that person.

Artemisia De Vine: I didn't set out to it, but somehow word of mouth spread and therapists started coming to me and learning from me because they recognized that I had a missing piece that they just don't have. And that's because I'm not looking through the lens of what's wrong with you and what needs fixing. I'm looking through the lens of how stories work and how we change from one state of consciousness to another.

Artemisia De Vine: And How sexual fantasies are very clever, [00:41:00] clever psychological mechanisms that are designed by our own mind to overcome the inherent paradoxes of sex. There, there is inherent paradoxes of sex. It's just there. One, the first one we've already talked about, which is this self versus self paradox. There's an internal part called your ego versus the internal part called your desire, and they want different things.

Artemisia De Vine: And they're both right. That's what makes a paradox is they're both right, but they contradict each other. The ego wants to keep you safe. And the, and the, the desire says, well, I want you to take a risk because then you can connect. Right? So these things are in conflict. How do we resolve the internal conflict?

Artemisia De Vine: There's a paradox that it must be solved and sexual fantasies solve that. But it's also solving this paradox of self versus self. Other. Who should I be focusing on? Should I be looking after your unique erotic wiring or mine? Can't we do them both at the same time? I don't feel safe to show you my internal world [00:42:00] unless you're turned on by my turn ons.

Artemisia De Vine: Oh my god, how am I going to be safe if you, your turn ons are different to mine and yet your ego is different to mine, so of course your turn ons are different to mine. How are we going to resolve this paradox? How are we going to go into an experience where together while being different and being turned on by different things.

Artemisia De Vine: And sexual fantasies help you resolve that. And there's the third one, which is paradox of, there's always, always a conflict between the, what's the greater good for the individual and what's The greater good for the collective community. And you can think about that in really basic terms is for instance, you know, what's good for you is to sleep in this morning because your body is tired and you need sleep.

Artemisia De Vine: And yet what is good for the community is you've committed to going to turning up on time to, to charity event, to earn money for the orphans or something. And so you sac you might sacrifice your sleep in order for the [00:43:00] greater good of the day. Turning up to the community commitment, or you might prioritize yourself and forget, but you have to choose.

Artemisia De Vine: There's a conflict. There's always a conflict. And in sex, that's, you know, to give you an exaggerated, ridiculous example, just to prove it, it's, you know, I'm feeling really horny right now. It would actually feel great to masturbate. It would give me tension release. If it would give me pleasure, it would feel great.

Artemisia De Vine: It's healthy. It's good, but you know, it's not very appropriate to have masturbate in the middle of the funeral. So I better not do that.

Roula: Okay, this is extreme,

Artemisia De Vine: I guess I did make it extreme, but, but you can see what I mean that there is always this conflict between what is good for the collective and what is good for, this is a topic that you can go into philosophically. So, but the sec, what I, when I realized that sexual fantasies seemed so like, they seemed so bizarre and it didn't [00:44:00] seem to have any sense to them whatsoever when I first started exploring them.

Artemisia De Vine: But when I realized that they are the exact story, we need to resolve those paradoxes to give us permission to be able to let go. It's like, Oh my God, that's what it's doing. It's creating these beautiful moments. And in fact, It's not only just resolving these paradoxes, but it is taking us home to our full old self.

Artemisia De Vine: It's taking, it's a, it's an internal wisdom that knows the way to this bigger sense of self, which people spend years meditating to try and get to. They do all sorts of spiritual practices to try and get to it, but we've got this inbuilt map, and when you know how to hear it, and you know how to follow your own internal desire compass wisdom, And create deliberate embodied play that activates it all.

Artemisia De Vine: You've got it right there at your fingertips. You've got it right there. And I kept [00:45:00] experiencing it with clients that I just met an hour ago. And, you know, and they thought that they just wanted busty blonde. And yet if I heard their fantasies and created a real life experience for them based on their, the, the, the clues, the map that their fantasy gave me, they were like, wow, I had no idea I could feel this.

Artemisia De Vine: This feels like who I, who I really am, who I've tried to be all my life, who I knew was here, but I couldn't get to. This is, this is. What even is this? It feels like I'm on drugs and yet it doesn't feel like drugs because it's the opposite of escapism. It's my heart is open, my mind is open, I'm so fully here, and they had no guards and I could connect with them, I could look, you know, when they walked in the door they were just a normal human and they might even annoyed me, but by the time they get to this stage It just feels like I'm looking at their soul through their eyes, their egos out of the way, their [00:46:00] ordinary everyday self is in the backseat of the car or out of the car altogether.

Artemisia De Vine: And I'm now, what it feels like, and I know this sounds out there, but it really feels like their higher self and their primal self has merged together in perfect harmony and I can see it in their eyes. And I can, and we just sit there in amazement together or in amazement going. What? This is cool. This is so cool.

Roula: I have not imagined that we're going to, that the conversation will be somehow spiritual. Spirituality means different things to different people, but the discussion brings happiness and hope to those who are open to embrace it and also open minded. We live in challenging times and comparing our times with myself, because I am Generation X, I recall a [00:47:00] period when discussing sex, flirting, and having casual flings felt much freer.

Roula: Today, things are complicated, and rightfully so. Cameras are everywhere, everything is recorded, and the whole world is watching. Many people have been hurt and abused in the name of sex, leading us to forget that sex can be good and should be elevated, not eliminated. It's not disrespectful when communicated properly.

Roula: This reflection, long reflection struck me where after listening to podcasts about BDSM, the topics discussed were incredibly interesting and they continuously circle back to respect and consent in the outside world. Conversations are disrespectful and sexual fantasies evoke fear, fear of disrespect, fear [00:48:00] of not fitting societal norms.

Roula: What's your perspective on this, particularly in terms of respect and consent? 

Artemisia De Vine: Yes. So as a professional dominatrix, I would have BDSM clients and Almost always, they had already been part of the community already for a while, and they were much better quality clients than people who came for vanilla sex, who came for the more classic forms of sex, right?

Artemisia De Vine: So, because they had a community around them that created a consent culture. And so they had language to be able to openly talk about this. They had skills to create safety and understand each other's turn ons. And not to, not in the same way that I was teaching, but, um, uh, still very good. When in somebody who came in, who was just, who had a sexual fantasy and they came from a more, more classic forms of sex than they'd been watching porn.[00:49:00]

Artemisia De Vine: They had no skills. With which to understand it themselves. So they were still having this massive conflict inside of them, between their ego and their desire and no way of understanding it and no way of bringing it out into a consensual conversation and asking for what they need. And so I had to guide them in how to do that.

Artemisia De Vine: And I think that there's an awful lot that the world BDSM because BDSM has gone ahead and. Created a system in place to be able to bring our internal con, you know, conflicting and confusing and complex parts out in ways that can create a safe container for us to explore them within play, which is entirely different to just, you know, putting them on somebody non consensually, randomly halfway through sex.

Artemisia De Vine: Suddenly, suddenly just doing it because they were too afraid to talk about it. So they're just going to try and do [00:50:00] it halfway through sex. All right. That's, that's not, that's going to end either. Well, it could work out maybe, but it might also end disastrously. So there's better ways of approaching things than just winging it partway through, because you feel shy to talk about it, but that's what we need though.

Artemisia De Vine: Isn't it? That's part of what I, Ooh. Part of what I teach is, is how to create the right container. You need a really safe container, and the stronger the safe container is around sex, the conversations before, the conversations after, the self awareness, the tools to become self aware and understand yourself.

Artemisia De Vine: And keep understanding what parts to communicate to each other and how do we invite them in ways that they can actually hear and get and act on. Is, is part of the skillset of the art form of neurotic, um, professional or not just a professional, somebody who is, um, making neurotic a priority in their life and wants to, wants to get the fullness out of, out of this situation [00:51:00] and the stronger.

Artemisia De Vine: The container that holds your vulnerability, the more vulnerable you can be, the safer that container is, the wilder you can be. Thank you. 

Roula: I love your answer because it aligns with my own discoveries. I'm exploring. sexuality differently and understanding why monogamous couples often experience hurt feelings and less respect for sexual freedom.

Roula: I found that respect and focus on satisfying sexual needs are more common in non monogamous couples. And how I found it is because I listened to a few creative podcasts. So it looks like Unconventional settings foster more connection and respect than a marriage or a conventional relationship. Also, what I noticed is that being in a relationship, it drains the joy from the couple's sex life.[00:52:00]

Roula: There is so much jealousy and of possessing each other. It takes away the creativity. Can we discuss how we to help couples enjoy sexual triggers and stimulations rather than argue about them and run away from them. 

Artemisia De Vine: What you're talking about is normal. If there's nobody's fault, there's no blame in this.

Artemisia De Vine: If you don't have any skills and any way of understanding this part of yourself, how can you possibly communicate it in ways that aren't going to cause hurt? How can you? Like this is how it is. Let's, let's be gentle on ourselves for this, because until we have the skills, what, what can we do? But imagine what the world would be like if they did Take the time to understand their own erotic mind.

Artemisia De Vine: They did take the time to understand how sexual fantasies and their desires and their patterns of turn ons work. And then they were able to have the skills to be able to [00:53:00]create. Powerful situations where they could be joyous and also challenging because sometimes, you know, our ego is afraid of things.

Artemisia De Vine: Sometimes our fantasy is actually like, Oh, I want to feel embarrassed first and then feel a breakthrough. Oh, I want to feel. Anxious first, not knowing what's going to happen and then go, Oh, wow, just overwhelmed me. And I got to feel this like, so it's a story, sexist embodied story. It's not just physical act ever.

Artemisia De Vine: It's never just physical. It is. We're bringing our own internal psychology out into our physical bodies, into our play together. And that is where the magic lives. So if we've got the skills to do that. Imagine the conversations on Instagram, shaming and whatever are going to be a whole different thing.

Artemisia De Vine: We're going to be not blaming the wrong thing. We're going to be not demonizing sex because at the moment we've got this broad brush of all sex is dangerous because if we don't [00:54:00] understand it, it can harm people all. And so, you know, as I was speaking to you earlier before we started recording, I, I don't even try and build my social media following because it, you know, Because all of the bots just algorithm mute anything to do with sex because they can't tell the difference between non consensual harmful sex and sexuality and wellness discussions.

Artemisia De Vine: They can't tell the difference. And so everything gets suppressed and even banned and I lose my account over and over again. But if we can tell the difference. If we've got the tools to be able to understand this extraordinarily powerful part of ourselves, how would the world change? How would we stop?

Artemisia De Vine: How would we relate to each other differently? I think it would make a huge difference. 

Roula: What era in your opinion and knowledge was really the time where people were more comfortable with their sexuality with themselves and life looked better in this intimate world? [00:55:00] Oh, I'm not sure. 

Artemisia De Vine: Let me think about that.

Artemisia De Vine: Because I think it depends on where you are in the world and what your particular subculture is. And I was brought up in extremist Christianity, which was so extreme, we weren't allowed to even have herbs in the food in case it excited our senses. There's no makeup, no jewelry, no drums in the music in case we got it physically excited.

Artemisia De Vine: So that was so against anything to do with the body and senses that to me that was not a, that was not a good place. And yet other people might be in Australia might be experiencing different things than I was at that time. So I don't know, I'm also Gen X, but, and then, you know, I went to boarding school early on, early on, I guess, In my twenties, when I started exploring myself in, in various different sexual contexts, there was less understanding around consent, less understanding around how turn ons work.

Artemisia De Vine: And they tended to go into two extreme responses to that, [00:56:00] like either suppress everything to keep yourself safe or go for a free for all. Don't shame me. I'm going to do everything. And there was no, um, finesse, no context, no tools around. And I think the middle ground is probably good, a good thing to have.

Artemisia De Vine: I'm really grateful, like 100 percent grateful for the For the conversations around trauma that are happening and all of the conversations around people who are speaking up about the negative sexual things that they've experienced. But honestly, if we take that too far, we would go down the path of thinking we need to suppress it in order to be safe.

Artemisia De Vine: I want to invite back a middle ground, the best of both worlds. It is important to honor our needs to find the right level of risk and safety for us. That sweet spot of risk and safety. And that can include having extra safety because we've got past experiences where we're trying to navigate while we're trying to get to our [00:57:00] pleasure.

Artemisia De Vine: But my goodness me, we don't need to suppress this part of ourselves. It is not inherently bad at all. In fact, We don't need to shame people's turn ons, just like this female friends of mine have gone into conscious sexuality and they have gone down this route of, Oh, I'm doing conscious sex, that keeps me safe.

Artemisia De Vine: Your smutty porn fantasy is bad and doesn't respect me, so it's not right, like my conscious sexuality. And they've gone into shaming as a way to keep themselves safe. They've, they, they, they think that this is, they need to do this in order to be, they're like, I wanna be respected. And that smutty porn seems like it's not respecting women.

Artemisia De Vine: What are you doing? And I'm saying, well, actually, let's look at it through a different lens. That porn is a story. It's a sexual fantasy turned into theater. It's not meant to be instructions for how you behave in the outside world. [00:58:00] Desire is a rubbish and don't listen to desire when it comes to certain things like desire is not the organ of the psyche you will tune into and ask for advice when you're trying to do your taxes.

Artemisia De Vine: It's like it's only smart in certain areas and you listen to it and it's in its area of expertise. It doesn't know how to translate this into an outside world. You have to ask a different part of your brain how to do that and learn how to do that. That's what I teach in the desire compass of how to listen to these different organs of the psyche to create the so that you can trust your desire and also keep yourself safe.

Artemisia De Vine: Um, but it's, I'm getting carried away. You can say I get very excited about this topic. But this. Desire is a genius in its area of expertise and what its area of expertise is it knows how to move you from I to we, it knows how to move you from I to [00:59:00] we to all. To connect it with everything. It knows how to take you home to your whole self.

Artemisia De Vine: It doesn't know how to translate that out in the outside world. It lives in this subconscious imaginarium inside you, where everything's a story. Everything's made of symbols. And when you start looking at that porn as a story and you go, okay, I'm not going to try and live that porn out exactly like that.

Artemisia De Vine: They're, they're professional actors and it's not actually a good idea to go from anal sex to vaginal sex. You're going to get thrush, but on porn, they did it because it was hot and they, they, they've got systems in place to keep themselves safe over those sorts of things. But it's a fantasy. You don't want to copy what's on the porn.

Artemisia De Vine: You want to work out what Was hot about the porn. What's the psychological mechanism inside of that? And how can we create the same effect in our real life sex? So once we know how to find this middle ground, we [01:00:00] can, we don't need to reject porn in order to feel safe. We can go, why do it? Why are we drawn to it?

Artemisia De Vine: What's the good in it? How can we bring that? into our real life encounters.

Roula: I want to know what SMUT is, where does it come from? 

Artemisia De Vine: Is this not a word that you have in your, uh, do you mean the word itself or do you mean what, a bigger question than that? 

Roula: The word itself and what is it? Because I, first time I heard it is from you. 

Artemisia De Vine: Oh, okay. So smut is, well, I'm reclaiming it. My book is, my upcoming book is called The Spirituality of Smut, The Surprising Wisdom of Sexual Fantasies.

Artemisia De Vine: And I chose the [01:01:00] word smut because it's got such power. It's delicious to save your mouth, but it is, it's a, it's actually an insult towards sex. It's like, Oh, you shouldn't watch that smut. That's filthy. That's dirty. It's actually traditionally coming from this judging place. Like, Oh, if you do that, you're a dirty little whore.

Artemisia De Vine: If you do that, you're, you know, you're That's that's primal it's and I'm reclaiming and I'm flipping it on its head just like so many sexual fantasies do that sort of sexual fantasy do they say, Oh, you're afraid of smut. Let's make smut sexy. Oh, you're afraid of being in a horror. If you're a sexual being let's make being called a whore really hot.

Artemisia De Vine: Like it flips its head so that no matter what's in the way of letting go. is resolved. And this desire part of you is on your side. It's always dissolving whatever obstacle is in the way so that you, it will not let you miss out on your birthright. [01:02:00] It's a genius at guiding you home to your pleasure and your, your expansive sense of self.

Artemisia De Vine: So, and to do that, it includes whatever you fear, including being I'm a sexual being. If they knew I was a sexual being, they'd think I was a dirty little whore. They'd think that was smutty. They would think that's dirty and filthy. Oh no. And then desire will say, okay, let's turn that into a fantasy then.

Artemisia De Vine: Let's have a fantasy where they actually do see you. The whole football team sees you. It's a gang bang and they're all going to see you and they're all going to turn, call you a dirty little whore. And that's the poison, that's letting your ego fear it. Because you don't want to be treated like that in real life, that's awful.

Artemisia De Vine: But in the fantasy, it gets transformed. It gets turned on its head. It gets turned into the exact opposite end result because the antidote is also included Because actually everybody's keeping her safe [01:03:00] because actually everybody is giving her the touch that she wants for exactly how long she wants exactly how she wants it and Actually, she's the center of attention not rejected by society.

Artemisia De Vine: She's Queen Bee Actually, she's desired and wanted actually The antidote is there at the same time as the thing you fear. And when that happens, the alchemy happens and it transforms and she doesn't feel awful and shamed and, and shut down. She feels opened up and satisfied and full and, and gets everything that she needs and feels wonderful afterwards.

Artemisia De Vine: As long as you include the right poison and antidote for her, right? 

Roula: As long as you include them both. Smart sounds now very much cuter than it should have been originally. It's such a cute word. What I want to know is, is there a gender that's more inclined to have these fantasies? [01:04:00] And I'm not talking about dare to share them or be open about them, just in our nature.

Roula: We're all human. I think we all have them. What's your experience? My experience is that 

Artemisia De Vine: when it comes to gender, actually everybody has just as, just as dirty, in inverted commas, fantasies as each other. Actually, there, there are differences because Because gender has actually been involved in like, you're going to have different fears around what the community is going to think of you.

Artemisia De Vine: If you remember those paradoxes where you have self versus other, what's the other person going to think of me? Yes. So actually it's even, but. But women are going to have extra shame, that extra, when it comes to, for instance, what the community is going to think of a sexual woman compared to what the community is going to think of a sexual man is different.

Artemisia De Vine: So she's going to have different obstacles to have to [01:05:00] overcome and alchemize with her poisons and her antidotes. When it comes to how her fantasies work, because traditionally men have been given permission to, to lust and to feel angry, but not to feel any of their other emotions. They're given permission to desire but not feel.

Artemisia De Vine: Whereas women have given permission to feel and not desire. So you're going to have to overcome different things in their fantasies. But actually, I tell you what, when it comes to so called dirty fantasies and smutty fantasies, women are up there with the most, most creative perversions ever. I couldn't agree more.

Artemisia De Vine: Knowing myself.

Artemisia De Vine: Sometimes people don't realize that they're having fantasies at all because they've suppressed it so badly. Their relationship to desire, when they help people form a relationship with the desire compass, teach them that we go through what their past relationship with their desire has become and [01:06:00] form a new relationship with desire itself.

Artemisia De Vine: And if some people going to go into. suppressing their desire because they can't trust it. They're like desire. You get, you're the force that makes me want to spend all of my tax money on hats. You're the, you're the force that makes me want to eat all of the bakeries goods and have no self restraint around it.

Artemisia De Vine: I can't trust you. I must suppress you. And they become so good at suppressing desire. This organ of the psyche goes and hides behind a rock and won't come out. It's like, you know, trust me. 

Roula: Then 

Artemisia De Vine: it's gone. It's slowly 

Roula: fading away. 

Artemisia De Vine: Yeah. And other people, they keep their desire under a lid, but they, and when it lets out, it bursts out without any control because they've got, they haven't formed a relationship with it.

Artemisia De Vine: Whereas when you learn a desire compass, you're in relationship, you turn it into an ally with you. It can now become your guide and your guard. And it's actually really wise. It's an incredible, incredible source of wisdom. [01:07:00]

Roula: You're also very wise. Our conversation took me to really places of strong communication, wisdom, good expectations and respect.

Roula: I liked it very much. 

Artemisia De Vine: I've enjoyed this conversation very much. Thank you so much for having me here and asking fantastic questions. I've really enjoyed this. 

Roula: Artemisia Divine was in Greece on a business trip when we called and the storm happened during our call. She's in a beautiful hotel room with a large white bed behind her and the white curtains started flying in the room so I could see them.

Roula: The lights were changing. This is why you notice we had a small laugh about that. And, uh, there was a glitch in the connection. You notice it a little bit and, uh, luckily it did not affect the content of this episode. So let's go now to sharing with you the course that I have done [01:08:00]from her website, the celebrity swoon technique, um, to tell you that you subscribe and you will receive an email with this course.

Roula: It's for about 35 minutes. 35 minutes of uninterrupted fun, actually. Very informative. So, uh, here we go. Let me share with you how it happened. How we did the course. We were sitting together after dinner in the evening. We decided to follow the course. And in the beginning, it was informative. And we were like, well, he was like, where is this going to?

Roula: And we were like, oh. And the information is new. He's trying to grab it to understand what's going on. And of course, because I recorded the episode, I knew where this going after that. So after each lesson, there is information and it's like a door opening into a new [01:09:00] world. We got to the end. We did the celebrity swoon technique and it was amazing.

Roula: He. information about me. I got information about him. And the most beautiful part is that we connected in a way that he thought I would be jealous if he thinks that a celebrity is pretty or beautiful, whatever. And I didn't have the chance to tell her until this course to tell her that No, because it's fine that you like other people.

Roula: It's normal. How can you see something beautiful and something nice around you and put your head in the sand because you don't want to hurt my feelings? It's just not fair. Beauty is everywhere. How can we, like, ignore that? But this doesn't mean that he has to go and look for someone who looks like the celebrity.

Roula: also, it [01:10:00] doesn't mean that I have to go and look for someone that looks like a celebrity. These are things to help him and die together. And this course teaches us on how to talk about the things we like so that we can give each other the satisfaction and the happiness that we feel when we look to other people that we find attractive.

Roula: I can go on and on and on, but you will only really know what it means when you do the celebrity swoon. Now there, there is something that you must understand before you do the celebrity swoon. If you are not in a good place of your, in your relationship, if there is a jealousy, if you don't feel your partner is giving you what you want, And you don't both, and I'm, I'm a woman talking, but this is for both because we both have these feelings.

Roula: If you don't feel safe that you can tell [01:11:00] your feelings, your thoughts, and I don't mean only sexually on a regular day to day basis, you have to elevate your communication together before you can play and have fun sexually. The, the communication. in the sexual aspect is much deeper. It's more vulnerable and it is on a different level than in our day to day lives, but it won't, I'm not saying you should not do it.

Roula: It might even bring you closer. What I'm saying is that if you feel these games will hurt you, Don't do them together. You can do them separately and discover things about yourself. But if you want to have fun together, you need to deal with your communication issues. So go back, listen to my other episodes on communication, [01:12:00] and they will lead you towards this one.

Roula: Practice together, have fun together, and fight in a way that you grow together. Do not fight to end up in resentment. Okay, I felt like I have a lot of wisdom to share with you because I am in this good place in my relationship. And I wish you all you get to this good place. It is not without hard work, but this hard work now is fruitful.

Roula: We can have fun and enjoy our life, our mature life. So. If we do it, you can do it. So go ahead and work on the happy time with your relationship. Everything you need to know about Artemisia Devine, where you find the course, and how you can connect with her, you will find them in the show notes. Thank you for listening to today's episode.

Roula: If you enjoyed it, please share [01:13:00] it with your friends and family. And ask them to subscribe. Leaving a rating and review on platforms like Apple Podcast can also help boost the podcast. Ranking your support through word of mouth is greatly appreciated. If you feel I'm encouraging you to tell your story, contact me or ruler at the life affairs podcast.com.

Roula: You will see my email in the show notes. I'll see you next time.