Roula: [00:00:00] Jason, why do men have hard time in our society in this modern world today? 

Jason: Yeah, it's a fantastic question and something obviously I'm pretty passionate about. But we're living in interesting times in that, , I believe in evolution, like, we're supposed to evolve as human beings and grow.

Jason: And men are being asked to grow now in some pretty significant and powerful ways. And I think we're just at this shifting point where what used to be enough isn't quite enough. In the positive, I would say, these last, , 50, 60 years, a lot has already started to shift.

Jason: Women were able to come out of the home and into the workforce and be single and not just to have to bear kids and really get empowered in some powerful ways that I'm very pro, there's been a shift happening to men that started a little later. And [00:01:00] so this is part of kind of what I want to highlight here is that we're in a transition as men and we're a little behind in the sense that the men's work movement It didn't really start till kind of the late 80s, early 90s with guys like Robert Bly and some others who started to bring attention to like, Hey, things are changing for men too.

Jason: And some men are getting left behind, so to speak, the main thing I want to talk about here around this is from a young age. And obviously it's different in different places on the planet, but in general, from a young age, men and boys, we have tended to be rewarded for being disembodied, so for being disconnected from our bodies.

Jason: So our ability to work hard, do long hours, do dangerous [00:02:00] jobs, go to war, you name it. Professional sports. A lot of times that achievement comes at the cost of our bodily well being. And in a sense, , just in terms of evolution and reproduction, all it takes is, , if you have 30 women, you only need a man or two and you can create a whole nother generation of people, 

Jason: if you have 30 men and only one woman, it doesn't work so well. So there's, in a biological sense, the, the male body has been a little more disposable. And so men were often sent off to war do really hard, challenging things. And so this has kind of crept up in how we're raised and in the culture, where from a young age, again, what most men are valued for is being tough.

Jason: Be tough. push forward, get it done, achieve, don't [00:03:00] need anyone, particularly where I live here in the States. There's this whole myth of the kind of lone cowboy who doesn't need anyone and just gets things done by himself. There's some positive qualities in there. 

Roula: What is it like generational inheritance in this mindset? 

Jason: Yeah, some of it's generational, some of it is cultural, some of it is probably even biological, but there is this sense that , what, what we get rewarded for often comes at the cost of our body and in the work I do that includes our emotions.

Jason: And so the big shift that started, , in the last 20, 30 years for men is, , I would argue for women, it was that the outer world came online. We can go into the world and be individuals who have goals and wants and desires and dreams that aren't just tied to our biology. For men, it's kind of the inner world that's opened [00:04:00] up.

Jason: We're allowed to have feelings and an inner landscape and not always have the right answer or not always be tough and not always be strong. And The cost of this , is becoming more and more prevalent and noticeable in the culture, male suicide is through the roof. Men tend to don't live as long.

Jason: Men suffer from loneliness, heart disease, like these different things at a much higher level. And they're all connected. This idea of I have to be tough and figure things out on my, by myself is ingrained in so many men from a young age. And they have the research that if a man feels isolated and lonely in his life, it's just as dangerous as smoking a pack of cigarettes a day, being morbidly obese.

Jason: Many men these days don't have any friends over the age, , once they get past like 30, they have no friends. far fewer friends. There's been societal changes where things like male clubs and certain types of work [00:05:00] have changed. And , more people work from home and work alone. And so isolation has gone up and that particularly hits us men.

Jason: The challenge we're having at this moment is we're being asked to bring our inner world online. And then the outer world has changed considerably. And there's been a reckoning for I don't believe, , there's such thing per se as toxic masculine. I call it pathological, which just means something has gone wrong in its development.

Jason: And there's a real history, , of what can happen when men who are particularly disconnected from their heart, their hearts, their ability to feel who they're with, and even the environment, what kind of destruction they can cause, war, rape, environmental degradation, This stuff is real and there's plenty of evidence in the world.

Jason: The, the, the thing about that is there's a lot of [00:06:00] attention on that now. And so a lot of men are getting fed this message of here's what you're not supposed to be. Here's what we know is bad and dangerous, but there is not much talk about, well then what's healthy? What is the healthy manifestation of a an integrated man these days, someone who's holding masculine energy in a good way.

Jason: And so many men want to be better, but they don't know what it looks like. And in the work I do, I often see that men, , in this inheritance thing you're talking about, we often only have about three different archetypes of what a man can be modeled for us. One, what I would just call simply the macho jerk.

Jason: That just, my way or the highway, I take what I want, I do what I want, my attention is on getting my needs met, even if that means, yeah, I hurt somebody in the process or hurt the planet or whatever that might be. And we've had generations of that, and many men saw that and said no, I don't want to [00:07:00] be that.

Jason: And so the pendulum kind of swung to what's fairly present in certain parts of the world now of kind of the nice guy, a man who's really sweet. really sensitive, very safe, but a little disconnected from his power, his sexuality, his ability to set boundaries or move towards what he wants in life.

Jason: And those guys, , don't tend to get what they want. And they sometimes have a hard time protecting themselves or the people around them. So those two archetypes don't work. And then there's also what I would kind of call just the stoic, which is the, the man who just shows up, It might be a dad, might be a grandfather, does what he's supposed to do, but has completely sealed off his inner world.

Jason: Never has an emotion, never talks about it, is just on lockdown. And , I think particularly some older generations really have that where, , I hear stories all the time of someone talking and they [00:08:00] find out their grandfather, , was a vet in a war and experienced all this stuff and like, wow, you never said anything about that.

Jason: And I've known you for, my entire life, but it's just lockdown. And so most men are kind of modeled those three things and they don't work, men end up suffering. Our bodies suffer the whole time in terms of autoimmune disorders, addictions to alcohol, or in weed. , there's so many things these days, which are all attempt to, to manage what happens when we feel discomfort in our body.

Jason: Then you add on to that, , culturally a lot of times there's just this sense that's just as men are just as much at fault here of deriding other men anytime we show vulnerability or emotion. We call it locker room talk. We call it here in the States where we make fun of you or call you names or label you a feminine or whatever that might be.

Jason: So men are also getting it from other men that, Hey, I'm [00:09:00] not supposed to have emotions. And lo and behold, emotions start as sensations in the body. So if I'm not going to have emotions, best way to not feel them is to eject from my body. And all that leaves is then our head. And so a lot of men walk around in the world, ruminating, totally lost in thought and actually disconnected from the body they're in.

Jason: And that causes all kinds of problems. And that's, I think, where men are at right now. If we've had generations of men who have been disconnected. And we're now being asked to reconnect, to actually, literally to come into our bodies and hearts and be present in the world in a completely different way.

Roula: How could, how did you come to this inner work and kind of, I don't know if it's a revelation. It's, we know about it. It should happen. Being connected to their body and feel the sensations to [00:10:00] feel the emotions and express them. Easy said. How did you get to this point? To this understanding? 

Jason: Yeah, totally.

Jason: For me, it started the way it starts for a lot of men where it came from my own pain. So something in my life was so painful that I had to make a change and try to find something else. So for me, it was, I grew up here in the United States, white guy, lower middle class had most of my basic survival needs met in a lot of ways, but my family just did not have emotional connectivity or physical intimacy of any kind.

Jason: So we were just kind of in the same house. Things weren't really talked about. There wasn't much connection between us. And so, that was, , mostly fine. I found a way to survive when I was a young boy, but as I became a teenager, and went through puberty and suddenly was interested in women, I found that I could, my whole body would get [00:11:00] anxious and tight and uncomfortable when I was around a woman I was attracted to.

Jason: And I did not know how to connect. And I saw other people connecting and getting into relationships, and it was super painful for me that I couldn't. I didn't know how to do it, my whole body would clam up and that started a journey for me of like, well, why, why does my body do that? Which I'm covered. Oh, okay.

Jason: Yeah. There were certain nutrients I didn't get. 

Roula: How did 

Jason: that 

Roula: you were just a teenager? 

Jason: Well, this didn't all happen as a teenager, but as I, , spent the next couple years with the realization, my life feels very painful. I don't like it. There must be a better way. To live in the world, like literally just there must be a less painful way to be in the world.

Jason: And that started me on like a hunt, , a journey to try to figure out what was going on. And that ties into the next piece where, , at first I got introduced to some therapy and then it was men's work. I got into men's groups and [00:12:00] I, in my mid twenties, got to spend time with older men who were further along their journey.

Jason: Who had done more inner work and transformative work, and had the immediate experience of my body of, that is what I want. Wow, I can feel that man. He's relaxed in his body. He's very present. He's not a pushover, but he's not a jerk. Like he, he can set clear boundaries. He's a leader and I want to be a leader like that.

Jason: So it was me, , coming up to these men and being like, how did you get where you are? What did you do? What did you discover? And then that kind of got me on this journey of inner work and growth to help me get connected to my body. And that was a huge start for me of realizing I was totally disembodied.

Jason: I was pretty numbed out from my body and just really until about 10 years ago people would ask me, , what are you feeling? How do you feel? And I'd be like, [00:13:00] I don't, I don't know. What do you mean? I'm okay. Like I had no connection to what was happening in my inner world, no labels, no way to talk about it, no way to express it, which means I didn't have a lot of control over it then because it was something that was just happening without me.

Jason: So this inner journey, , for a lot of another way to think about this is for a lot of men, we used to grow by going out into the frontier of the outer world, really exploring and going to new places. This moment in time that has shifted to the inner world. What does it mean to go inside and start to ask, why do I feel the ways I feel?

Jason: And then, , you pull on that thread enough and you quickly discover, well, Hmm, I feel this way because I was raised a certain way. Why was I raised this way? Oh, cause my parents experienced something. Why did they experience it? Because their parents experienced something. And you do feel these threads, which they have evidence for, right, in this [00:14:00] new body of work called epigenetics, that in addition to passing on our DNA, there's a layer.

Jason: of genetic material on the outside of the DNA. That actually gets changed by your life experience. And we pass that forward through our children. And it's something you can change, which I think we'll talk a lot about later. But so there was this awareness of, oh, okay, there's certain wounds, let's say, that the men in my lineage have been carrying for generations.

Jason: And what's really cool about this moment in time. It's now because of the internet and information and just the way the world's opened up. We have access to more healing modalities than any single person had on the planet, , a hundred years ago. And so we have the real potential to actually change this stuff and say, what?

Jason: I want to do this differently, whether you have kids or not. And I want the generations after me to experience it [00:15:00] differently. So I'm going to change. I'm going to do my work here and become even more intimate with myself. And that has a massive impact on our wellbeing as men. , the, certainly what I experienced and what I see in men when I guide them in this work is as they get more into their bodies and some of this emotional material releases and moves and they get more grounded and they get more present, they come more alive.

Jason: It's like life energy actually comes back in their body and it's so much more pleasant to both be in that as a man and then to be around men who are feeling that. 

Roula: For the, the women listening to this, they have so much to come out of it, because I can give you a real life example that maybe put what you're saying in a more factual situation.

Roula: We women, when we are angry, nervous, anxious, we feel it in our gut. And I remember, I was in [00:16:00] therapy sessions, And the therapist asked me, So where are you feeling it? The first time she asked me, I didn't know what to answer. Even though I feel it in my gut, I was, Is it normal to say that I feel it in my gut?

Roula: , I have stomach pain because of it. , sometimes I feel it suffocating me. And I wonder if I'm feeling this anxiousness like this, and, I don't know. I haven't heard, I do hear women talking about it, but I don't, it's like men don't feel it. They don't have the sensation. And you mentioned seeking things outside, in the exterior.

Roula: rather than inside, the inner work is, am I like understanding correctly? So what I'm feeling was the inner sensation of my anxiousness and the exterior would be overreacting, drinking, [00:17:00] or 

Jason: that's what men will often, that's what men in particular will often do. I mean, any human, but men in particular, because no one teaches us or trains us how to be in our bodies.

Jason: We will have uncomfortable sensations in our body. We've not been taught to identify them, let alone what to do with them. So what do men do? They want to eject away from those sensations. So when you think about probably the most popular drug on, on the earth, alcohol, what does it do? It takes us away from our sensations.

Jason: It numbs. Literally men and women, but a lot of men will, will actually drink until they black out. They will drink themselves to feeling nothing. Weed, porn, sex, there's so many different things men will kind of turn towards to get away from their feelings because they don't know what to do with them.

Jason: And you're right, like there's so much information in the [00:18:00] body. And I think, , for evolutionary reasons, women have had to be more in touch with that. Because they Are in more dangerous situations, just physically, , in the history of the world, they, they've been smaller. And so their intuition has had to be stronger, 

Jason: of Ooh, something tells me this is not safe. I'm not safe. My child is not safe. This man is not safe, whatever it is. And I think some of that has persevered. So women are often just a little bit more in touch with their bodies and intuitions. Men, we have that capacity. I know men who are highly intuitive and highly connected to their bodies, but it's, it's often not there by default.

Jason: We have to kind of be taught it, how to connect to our bodies in that sense. But there's so much power there, like, like you experienced and they have evidence for it right now in that, , there's a, you've maybe heard of, there's a [00:19:00] bundle of nerves that go from the base of your brain down your center column called the vagal nerve They call it the vagal nerve, but it's a couple different nerves.

Jason: And the interesting thing about it is it's what connects the brain to the body. It's kind of the highway that connects the brain to the body. But they've done research and what they found is that only 20 percent of the bandwidth of that channel, let's say, is brain to body. So 80 percent of that channel is dedicated.

Jason: to getting information from the body and bringing it to the brain. So many men are walking around in the world only using 20 percent of their capacity to lead, frankly, to be intuitive, to make decisions. They're ignoring all this information they're getting from their body, from the environment, and that's a big part of what we're [00:20:00] doing.

Jason: , I'm trying to champion here is, Hey guys, it's not just like, woo, woo, get in touch with your feelings. It's you're missing out on being the most effective version of yourself that you can be the best leader, the best lover the best father, whatever that looks like the best boss. And that the more we can get in touch with that, the better.

Roula: It takes me to, to the place where. , it seems, men are missing out on so much. And at the same time, they did not have the help to discover it. Women from the 70s were fighting for the pill, before fighting to vote, and then for the pill, to work. , there is so much keeping women busy and advancing.

Roula: And men, , they've been having the wrong kind of guidance , which made them disconnected completely from their bodies and sensations. To your point, a lot of [00:21:00] men don't run away from these conversations, because they don't want to have the talk about their emotions.

Roula: They're with their friends. , I don't know what men talk about with their friends. But you can see like football is man. Car racing is man shooting games. Martial arts sport is man and there get very excited about all these topics over a beer and a barbecue and doing things together Don't they have deep conversations to get to know the deep inside of 

Jason: Yeah. I think a lot of men are starving for that, and many men I work with don't even know it's possible. So another thing here is, yeah, a lot of men are taught to relate by what I call triangulation, which means you and I, we feel connected to each other by having our attention on this third thing.

Jason: Sports, [00:22:00] martial arts race car, whatever that thing is. It's by us sharing our attention on this thing, we feel bonded with each other. And there's a time and place for that and it can be really beautiful and it can be really fun, but it misses out on the depth underneath of what happens when we put our attention on each other.

Jason: Hey, what's going on in your life? What's hard? Were you thriving? What are you celebrating? Were you in pain, and when men, in my opinion, in my experience, when they discover that that's a possibility and someone guides them into it. It turns out they have a lot to share about their lives and what they're feeling, but they've just, again, many of us have just never had it modeled for us that we can do that, that we can go deeper than just this kind of surface things, right?

Jason: A lot of men just, we like to talk about things rather than each other. in our relationships. And I'm not saying you can't talk about things. What I'm [00:23:00] saying is there's a lot more available to you, to us as men, when we bring on these other pieces. And in fact, it makes life better. Like life is better when we're connected to ourselves and in our bodies and in our hearts.

Jason: And we can relate particularly to other men, but really anyone from this deeper place. And that, , there's some structural reasons for some of this too, in that , in a lot of human history, there, there were, , obviously, again, different and different cultures, but it was pretty traditional that in a lot of tribal societies, , boys and girls would be kind of raised together until about the time of puberty and mostly be raised by women.

Jason: And then at a certain age, a boy would be taken away. By the men to go through a rite of passage and start spending time with uncles and men and men in the community to start to learn the ways of what it means to be a man, how to protect, how to serve, how to make things. And a lot of that changed [00:24:00] when the industrial revolution hit.

Jason: And suddenly men's work wasn't in the near town anymore. It was often a factory. So dad would go away all day and then. , we had the can't think of the word, but, , the, the idea of kind of K through 12 schooling came online, that, okay, then we're going to throw kids in a school where they go away.

Jason: And a lot of teachers these days are females. So a lot of boys are primarily raised by women and they never have that rite of passage where men say, hey, let's talk about what it means to be a man. What it means that, yeah, your body's changing, you have powers, you have urges, you have desires, what's your responsibility in your culture and your family, whatever that might be.

Jason: And so yeah, there's just a lot of confluences of things that, , a lot of young boys never have the chance to connect with [00:25:00] older mature men, particularly ones that aren't necessarily their dads. Cause, , no father can be the perfect father and give a son everything, but you can learn a lot by being around other older, wiser men.

Jason: That's part of where I got lucky in my twenties is I met some men and they each had different pieces of things I was yearning for in that I didn't even know were possible. And then suddenly I had modeled for me like, wow, that man is crying because of how much pain he's in, but wow, he doesn't feel weak.

Jason: He feels actually quite strong. Like. I feel more relaxed being around him, or that man's really, really angry. Like I feel his ferocity and his boundary, but he doesn't feel dangerous, again, he actually feels safe. Like I didn't, I didn't know that was possible, a man could be angry or a man could be sad and still be totally present and trustable and open.

Jason: And it's in those interactions that our nervous system, I think, learns what's possible. Like, oh, wow. I didn't know that was an [00:26:00] option. Nobody showed me or modeled that for me. And then once it's modeled for a lot of men, they, they, they want to step into it. , that's the thing. Like once men get the instruction manual, we generally want to do it right.

Roula: Men are good with instruction manuals. 

Jason: Yeah. We love it. We're like, Oh, once, once you tell me how to get there. But right now a lot of men don't know where it is they're supposed to get and let alone how to get there. 

Roula: Jason, it seems that the conversations, not, not every man and every child will have the opportunity to have a father figure or a wise man to guide them.

Roula: Yeah. Yeah. In the conversations that men can have with each other as friends, as colleagues or nephews, siblings, these conversations can also give wisdom and guidance. My question is, what is the fear? Is it the competition? What holds men back from opening up about conversations that are deep? [00:27:00] Or 

Roula: they feel, they think.

Roula: Is it judgment, fear, competition? What are 

Jason: these? Yeah, a lot of it is judgment and fear that other men will make fun of them, mock them. Hurt them, weaponize it against them, and there are plenty of men that have experienced that, , through bullying, or other men taking advantage of them. So these fears aren't all unfounded, and I'm not saying you're going to do this with every single man on the planet, but what's important to know is there are men available you can relate with in a different way, where you can get under the surface there and learn that, oh, wow, every man doesn't have to be my competition, as I say, but they can actually be my allies.

Jason: Other men can be my biggest allies in that, , like I'm in a men's group. I've been in one for a decade here in LA and you're exactly right. A big part of what we're doing with each other is actually refathering each other, giving each other certain types of father energy. And we [00:28:00] all have a different expression of that.

Jason: That's going around the circle at different times, but it fulfills a need that a lot of us didn't get of what it means. To be around a grounded, safe, powerful, masculine presence that accepts us and, , will give us a little guidance if it's like, Hey, I think you could be doing a little better here.

Jason: And I want you to be doing a little better. Do you want to do a little better? Yeah. Well, let's figure that out. It's the, it, how I kind of summarize like the, what I say, the, the father energy we all need is just the energy of. Well, let's figure it out together. Something didn't work, you have a problem, you failed at something, you're scared about something, that's okay.

Jason: Let's figure it out together. Is like such a beautiful masculine energy. We can bring that. I'm right in there with you. We're gonna trouble solve Troubleshoot fix this and then you're gonna learn something in [00:29:00] the process That's gonna help you feel even more confident taking yourself forward and so many men I know did not get that at all.

Jason: They either had an overbearing father a totally absent father volatile father You name it. And so many, many boys end up having to raise themselves. 

Roula: In majority they do. And the fathers, they don't have the knowledge that this, their times were different. And the women in their lives were not, did not want liberation.

Roula: Of course, I'm not generalizing, but the families we know, we grew up with, my family and The fathers were not the guiding fathers to get connected to their emotions. They are absolutely the contrary. Just do it. Don't cry. Be strong. 

Jason: Yeah. And that's why I emphasize men's work, [00:30:00] men's community, men's groups, because Sometimes you actually can't find that in your literal family lineage, 

Jason: so you have to go for it outside of that. And that's how you can help heal your lineage in some ways, is saying, Wow, okay, my dad never learned how to axe. I'm gonna learn how to do that. So my kids have a different experience of what it means that, Yeah, as a man, I'm allowed to have feelings. I'm allowed to have emotions.

Jason: I can share my honesty. I can share my truth. And can become more trustable for it, frankly. 

Roula: I'm raising my son, and you said children, they went to school, their teachers were women.

Roula: The difficulty I have as a woman, And have teaching my son to be connected with his emotions is when is it too much emotions and when is the time for me to ask him to be strong and just put these emotions aside or not put them aside but deal with them differently. So for women, we also [00:31:00] lack the education on how to raise our boys because I think.

Roula: Once we have clarity on the man's side, and they are connected with their emotions, we can work together to raise our children. A remark from my side based on women raising children. 

Jason: Yeah, no, I love that. And I think it is part of what we're all having to figure out collectively.

Jason: Right now is how do we do this in what's the healthier way? And in in my world. It's There's no such thing as too much emotion or a good emotion or a bad emotion What is important in what we want to teach our kids? It's what we do with our emotions So it's not the emotion that's good or bad.

Jason: It's what do we do with it and where men in the past have been , the most damaging is when they don't take responsibility and they push their emotions out or take their emotions out [00:32:00] on other people. But it's totally fine to be angry or to be sad or to be upset. But that's very different from I'm going to hit you or hurt you or totally withdraw from, from, from you or the family for extended periods of time.

Jason: And so what we want to teach kids, , what I. I teach my men, which is the same thing we teach boys, is how do we stay present with our emotions? 

Roula: Can you give me an 

Jason: example? How to, how to, how to, how to move from, to notice, wow, yeah, my belly's tight. I feel hot in my chest and I feel really angry right now.

Jason: I feel really angry that you told me I could X and then you didn't let me. I'm just making something up as a potential kid, and so the, the work there is to say, well, that's okay. So it's okay to be angry right now. You can stomp your feet. You can go hit a pillow. You can have a little [00:33:00]tantrum.

Jason: You're allowed to have that experience. What you're not allowed to do is hit your brother, break something be rude or mean to people. That's the kind of thing we want to model, that taking responsibility for that is what's key. And that's what a lot of men never saw. Many men, , the, the, the other side of the spectrum from the stoic I talked about is many men have no capacity to regulate their emotions.

Jason: So if they get angry or volatile, they explode and they're totally unsafe, they're totally unsafe. They have no control. Over what they're feeling in their body and what they, how they act as a result of that. The fine line, , we kind of want to walk here is you get to feel whatever you want to feel in your body and you have to be responsible for what you do with that.

Jason: So expressing that, feeling that in a safe place with safe people, that's what makes a man, a man. In my opinion, it's [00:34:00] not that you never have an emotion, it's that you allow yourself to have emotions. And you take responsibility for how to safely feel them or express them in the world. And when you can do that, it turns out you become a lot more trustable, right?

Jason: Even a man who can, , a man who can be looking at his partner or his child and say, I'm feeling really angry right now. My chest is on fire. Part of me wants to break something. If you can name that, you're 10, 000 times safer than a lot of men. who don't have that awareness and will actually just start to break something or get aggressive, right?

Jason: They're not aware of what's happening inside. But when we can name that experience, suddenly we have choice what to do with it. And so, , I'll hit pillows, I'll go work out hard. I'll, I'll do things when I get angry to honor and move that energy. So it doesn't run me anymore. But it's important to acknowledge it.

Jason: And that's what a lot of men. Don't know how to do, or [00:35:00] they numb out from it, or they push it out on other people. So again, maybe to tie it back, one of the best things we can do for our young boys is model. How do we handle our emotions? When we get triggered or reactive or overwhelmed, the fastest way they're gonna learn is seeing how you as a mom or a dad deal with your emotions.

Jason: Mommy's feeling really angry right now. I need to step away and take a couple deep breaths or. Daddy's feeling angry right now. He's going to go outside and do some jumping jacks. , I don't know whatever it would be, , to, to move that energy, but that's going to teach a kid. Oh, it's okay.

Jason: Everybody has feelings and it's okay to feel your feelings in a safe, safe way.

Roula: It could be also safe for men when they share that, okay, I'm getting angry now. I feel it in my chest. If I hear this from my man, for example, I would have understanding for what he's feeling I will feel with [00:36:00] him that he's in a place right now where I personally probably should back off when I don't hear this.

Roula: And the man wouldn't share how they're feeling. It's really inside how it's bothering them. It looks to the woman, the partner, the sister, whomever around, and I'm saying a woman because it's a different interaction than with a man. The woman will probably continue asking questions or trying to get into that argument.

Roula: And when there is clarification about the feeling and the emotions. It would give me five minutes to just calm down and think, Oh, shit, he's feeling something and I really need to respect that. 

Jason: Totally. Yeah. There's a lot of work. It's a game changer when men can start to participate in that way. And it, , the wild thing is it often [00:37:00] facilitates deeper connection.

Jason: When we actually know what we're feeling, we often feel more connected. Yeah. And the struggle for men is often they're so disconnected from themselves, they can't share what they're feeling. So then their partners feel disconnected from them. And then, , things go off the rails pretty fast. And, , when I was earlier in the, in the work, yeah, I used to struggle in my marriage.

Jason: , my wife would want to know what I was feeling, what was going on, and I couldn't connect to it. So she would get angry and she would get upset with me and start poking me until I got angry. And then once I got angry, she would actually relax a little bit because it's like, okay, at least you're feeling something now.

Jason: I know what you're feeling. I can work with that. But it was kind of , the blank space. She didn't know. That was very scary to her, very threatening to her in a sense, because it's like, what's, what's happening for you? I don't know what's going on in there. It's not particularly safe. And so, yeah, a big part of our work as men is, , they, they call this interoception.

Jason: So like [00:38:00] perception is awareness of what's happening outside of us. Interoception is our capacity to be aware of what's happening inside, emotionally, physically, to name it and express it. So some of the most meaningful work men can do these days is increase their interoception to become aware of the little feelings and sensations they have in their body that always come just before the big stuff in the sense.

Jason: And it's like, Oh yeah, I noticed I'm feeling a little a little left out or a little resentful or a little dah, dah, dah. Can we talk about X, Y, or Z? And suddenly it's a whole different conversation than it might go otherwise. And so yeah, , modeling this stuff is the key as I would say is, so that's one of the great things we can teach our boys.

Jason: The other thing is to I'll just share about boys is to know, I think particularly as young boys, we learn through our bodies and we need to move our bodies. We need to be physical, [00:39:00]exploring the world. jumping on things, breaking things, getting our hands dirty. That's what a lot of boys need. And that was something that was kind of taken away in a lot of modern schooling where it's sit still and don't move for eight hours.

Jason: That's not at all natural. I think for any kid, but particularly boys, so giving boys a space where they can be vigorous and physical and explore the world. And in that way is really important. And I think we're going to see education. , catch up to that in 20 or 30 years. 

Roula: I hope so. I don't see it at the moment.

Roula: It feels such a long way. There are a lot of talks about it, but no one taking initiative or making this change on on a global level, because there are, of course, schools that only foster this method. This brings me to a conversation I had with my husband the day before yesterday. They're they're working on the road in front of our house, and there's a pile of sand with pipes, empty pipes.[00:40:00]

Roula: And my son and his friends went there and they're starting to So I went to give them candies and I was shocked by the view. He was so dirty, his shoes, his clothes, like I've never seen him like this before. His nails are black. It was horrible. I returned home and I'm like saying to my husband, they're not allowed to come inside.

Roula: They have to stay outside. They are so dirty. And my husband looking at me saying, it's okay, it's okay. He should be doing this. He should be getting dirty. And then I was like. Yeah, what the heck? I mean, why am I making such a big deal out of it? But I'm not used to it. I grew up in a place where we have to stay clean and not mess out our clothes.

Roula: And at school, I was at nuns, nuns school. 

Jason: So 

Roula: you really have to be just brave and don't talk. And I think I brought this with me in my children upbringing. And [00:41:00] my son is my third child. Can you imagine how awful I was with my first one? And how strict? So things change as

Jason: part of the growth as a parent is right.

Jason: This is we learn things with each child and in ourselves. And every time we have a kid, we get to re experience what we weren't allowed to experience as a kid. And so that stuff can trigger things in us, like, no, you can't come in the house dirty. And you really sit with that and it's like, well, where's that voice coming from?

Jason: Oh, that's the voice that I was told. And I was never allowed to come in the house dirty. So that stuff starts to play out, right, through the generations. But in a situation like yours, it's beautiful that you kind of caught that and like, why am I having this reaction? Like, yeah, what would it mean to, , doesn't mean he can just come in and get mud everywhere or whatever.

Jason: But where, how could I meet him? Yeah. Play. And then we're going to, , clean up a little bit when you come in and I'm glad you had fun. 

Roula: I also did some work on myself in the past, it wouldn't go so easily that I accept it.

Jason: [00:42:00] Yeah. Yeah. That's what it takes though. That's what it 

Roula: takes. Hard work. And that teaches him.

Jason: And , without directly teaching him, that is teaching him something because you're transmitting growth never stops. I I'm growing. I look at myself. I learn things. I have to reevaluate things in his nervous system is going to absorb that, whether he's conscious of it or not. Right. Wow. Mom changed her mind on something.

Jason: That's incredible. Maybe I can change my mind on things too, like that's part of the lesson you're then teaching him, which is beautiful. 

Roula: Thanks for giving me this insight. I have not thought of it. That's a good one. Yeah. It's good. 

Jason: Yeah, it's a great gift. Totally. 

Roula: I want to know from you, because you talk about the men group and how it helped you.

Roula: What is men group and where can they be found? 

Jason: So men's groups , in some sense, they're like [00:43:00] tail as old as time, but they kind of went away and I think they're coming back and that Traditionally, yeah, men have spent time with other men to grow and discover who they are. Like we said, there used to be rites of passage, men going off on the hunt, men going off to war.

Jason: Deep bonding often happened in these things. A lot of that has fallen away, , for those of us lucky to live in parts of the world where that's not prevalent right now. But men's group's an attempt to bring that back. That, hey, we need connection as men. We tend to grow faster and deeper. with other men.

Jason: So I often use the example of, , just something as simple as exercise. It's like, Oh, I'm going to go exercise today. And I'm exercising alone. And , I exercise or it's like, I'm gonna go exercise with my friend. Oh wow. They're exercising hard. I'm going to, I'm going to exercise a little harder today.

Jason: , there's a little like friendly back and forth and you end up often bringing more of yourself than you might have otherwise. And men's group is essentially kind of [00:44:00] that it's what happens if a group of men. Gather, often repeatedly, with the intention of, I want to be the best version of myself and create the most amazing life I can.

Jason: And sometimes, I'm going to be feeling down, and I need support from others to let me know I'm okay, it's going to be okay, and sometimes I need my feet to be held to the fire a little bit and be held accountable that, hey, you've been talking about wanting to leave your job for two years, and you're miserable.

Jason: What needs to happen for you to actually make that change? And then the group can help you kind of move towards that. But the essence of a men's group is just men getting together and putting their attention on each other and supporting each other and becoming the most whole, deep, healthy versions themselves.

Jason: They can be with intention. So sharing, what are your intentions? What are your wants? What are your desires? What do you want to create in life? What kind of relationship do you want to have? What kind of father do you want to be? A lot of men never really think [00:45:00] about that. They just get sucked into the, , you're supposed to do this next in life, and this next in life, and this next in life, and then lo and behold, so many men have, , midlife crises where suddenly they're in a job or in a situation that they're, they're like, I don't actually want to be here.

Jason: I never chose to be here. I just kind of fell into being here. So men's groups kind of a way to disrupt that. And there are many types of men's groups, just like we might talk about, Hey, start meditating. And it turns out there's tons of ways to meditate, there's lots of ways to run as a men's group.

Jason: A lot of them are. support based, like I talked about, or accountability based, or practice based, meaning we get together and we do different embodiment practices, meditative practices to get more in our bodies. I lead some around shadow work, which is about getting more in touch with our emotional material. 

Jason: And, , like I said, the, the men's work movement's a little behind. So, , when I got into my first men's group in the mid [00:46:00] 2000s, , I could say that term and nobody would have any idea what I'm talking about. We're at a moment now where it is starting to kind of pierce the culture a little bit.

Jason: And it's the work is getting out there and growing really fast where there's different organizations that run men's groups. And it's starting to spread cause I think there is this deep need where men are feeling so isolated. They want to feel connected, , coming out of the pandemic, a lot of men felt even more isolated.

Jason: So there's a real hunger for community and connection. So men's groups, , it can be something structured and organized and facilitated. It can also be, as I tell a lot of men, just start as simple as you grab another buddy or two and you say, Hey, do you want to get together eight o'clock on Monday and talk about life?

Jason: Like, just talk about our actual lives for 90 minutes. That can often be the seed of an amazing group. And like I said, sometimes once men actually get into this space where they can [00:47:00] be heard and share their honesty, they'll, they'll have a lot to say. I'm always kind of surprised, , quiet men will come into my groups and then finally they'll feel safe and they'll just have so much to share that they've been holding for sometimes decades.

Roula: I'm going now in a, in a, in a direction that is awkward, but I really want not to understand. I just want to put more emphasis on the work you do. I hear. A lot of coaches, men coaches, they came from, they hit rock bottom, they discovered themselves and they started coaching. And in majority, they go into sports and fitness and coaching to become stronger, stronger body and they connected stronger body, stronger in mind, , what you're talking about is , physical activity, or maybe not.

Roula: But it's totally different from what I'm hearing from [00:48:00] multiple coaches. , what shadow working, what you're talking about stands out. It's not go to sport and get yourself fit and feel confident. It's go and talk to have mental fitness and more confidence. 

Jason: Yeah, it's exactly it. It's not at the exclusion of that other stuff, , feeling just having a strong and healthy body is life giving, right?

Jason: We can show up and we can do more of the things we want to do. So the work I do is about we want to have healthy balance in our bodies, in our hearts and in our minds, and we need to do just like you go to the gym to work out your body. You have to do certain emotional work to work out your heart.

Jason: Your emotions, and you have to do certain meditative work to work out your mind, to get a little more structured with your beliefs and thoughts and not believe most of the garbage that our mind thinks, most thoughts are just garbage. Like [00:49:00] they're just the way we talk to ourselves, the stories we make up, they have nothing to do with reality.

Jason: And so a little discipline there, a little ability to emotionally express ourselves and then taking care of our bodies and men can transform so fast. And I think these things are all important and all related. So the work I do, yeah, it's really about what I call embodiment, which is coming into the body.

Jason: But that includes our emotions. That includes our head. It's not the exclusion of all those things. We want all three in healthy balance. 

Roula: What kind of the man that comes to you? They have somebody told them you have to go and work on yourself or the majority, then you, they have to take the step. I 

Jason: mean, sometimes they'll get a recommendation from someone, but yeah, generally what I find for most men is, yeah, they hit something really painful in their life.

Jason: Something so painful that they can't ignore it [00:50:00] anymore in their relationship, in their career, in their body that it's like, Oh, I, if I don't shift this, , I'm going to suffer even more. And so there's, I gotta do something different here, and I'm willing to ask for help. Right, that's a big, big stretch for a lot of men is just the willingness to ask for help of, Hey, I don't know how to do this.

Jason: Can you help me? And when men open up to that, things can change so, so fast. But yeah, a lot of men I work with will come , relationships are a big one. When a relationship ends or doesn't work out, or a divorce, or they're dating someone that doesn't work out, that's one of the few things I've found that is painful enough to wake a man up to get some help.

Jason: And why I do a lot of work with men on intimacy and relationships in particular, because it's often the gateway. And then you find out, well, yeah, it was hard for you to show up in the relationship because you're so stressed out by your job because you don't know how to set any boundaries because you were raised in a household where you're always trying to, , X, Y, or [00:51:00] Z.

Jason: And these things are all connected. And then suddenly we have to start taking responsibility for if you want to be able to show up healthy in a relationship with energy, you got to set boundaries at work. You have to get enough sleep. You have to take care of your body. And then lo and behold. You actually have energy to be present for your partner and to be there in the room with him or her and not just be in your head or on your phone or whatever that might be so It's it's a whole lot of things, that that come together But it is that it's that realization for a lot of men and that there's got to be more to life than this.

Roula: Noticed you're very good in talking about man's energy And how they can use it in the right way or how it can put them down like in a dangerous manner. Can you talk a little bit about that? 

Jason: Yeah, I think one of the big challenges for most men I work with is energy management is just literally having enough energy and vitality.

Jason: to engage with the world. And [00:52:00] most, I joke, I want to make a t shirt, , for a lot of men, they walk around and they're feeling tired, grumpy, and burdened, just, I have so much to do and I'm like, I don't have enough time and I didn't do this and I'm feeling this. And that's the disposition for a lot of men. 

Jason: And so a lot of the work I do for men is around vitality. Yeah. What does it mean to get energy in your body so you can actually show up and participate? And very important here. actually enjoy your life, so many men fall for the fallacy of, well, once I do X, then I can be happy and enjoy life.

Jason: Once I get that raise, once I get the hot girlfriend, once I get the sports car, once I get rock hard abs. And the thing is, That almost never works because then you get there and you're like, Oh, I'm still not happy. , like I work so hard for this thing. So what I teach men is what does it take to have the [00:53:00] energy to show up and be actively engaged and passionate about your life in a man who is engaged and connected and passionate about his life is very infectious and attractive.

Jason: People want to be around. It's magnetic, there's, wow, you're in, you're in your life and you're enjoying it. I want to be around you. And how we do that as men, , it does take a lot of work learning to manage our energy and for a lot of guys just literally learn to take care of our bodies to get enough sleep, to eat well, to manage our sexual energy, to manage our diet, to manage our emotional health, these things, these things are all connected.

Roula: It's good to know , , you said once I get Men want to feel happy once they get to their goal. They have a goal, they want to get to it, and then they will feel happy. And sometimes these goals are very small and, I don't mean very small that they're not important, but these goals are not [00:54:00]worth Forgetting the essentials and looking after their partner or themselves or their Children and save their energy for unfortunately, I don't think we also have learned anything after the pandemic is that the pressure of work is back.

Roula: Delivering and competing and bringing all these numbers as agreed on is making men and women. feel back in this trap we were in before the pandemic. 

Jason: Totally. And that ties into, , that thing I said, a lot of men will just step onto the escalator of life without ever taking the time to think about, well, where do I actually want to end up and go?

Jason: So I'm going to work hard, work hard, advance my career. Suddenly I'm doing like 80 hour weeks and I only see my kid, , on weekends. So that what? , and often there's well, so that eventually I can make enough money [00:55:00] to not work as much so I can actually spend time with my friends and family.

Jason: And then you realize, wow, so you're, it, it doesn't actually work then, because by the time you get there, You've missed out on all the time. So there's this having to learn to prioritize and balance what's really right that it's like, okay, well maybe, , making the extra 200, 000 a year isn't worth it if I never get to enjoy my life or be in it or spend time with my wife or my kid.

Jason: And that's a big thing for a lot of men to have to actually sit down and think about, like, well, what do I, how do I actually want to live? And then maybe I should make career decisions to support that. Okay. Right. That actually support me in my relationships and living my life and enjoying it. , that's the, the thing that, another way to think about this kind of myth is the retirement myth.

Jason: I'll work hard now so later on I can enjoy my life. The trick to that is right. We're often aged. Our body isn't as vital, [00:56:00] isn't as healthy, and then we've missed out. I'm exploring the world for, , 30, 40 years. So the idea of, well, how can I start enjoying my life more now? Not just living for the future.

Jason: And that's a big, , that's the big shift of how do we as men become more present in our lives now, right now, how do I actually be in it? Maybe it's not exactly what I want it to be, but the truth is there's no guarantee you're even going to be here tomorrow. So you gotta Yeah, have a goal, move towards it, and don't forget to, , smell the roses along the way, as we say.

Roula: It's not easy to apply all of this. What's the most difficult thing, the most difficult approaches that you notice in your work happening and becoming? I have the word in Dutch in my head, hold on, I have to find it in English. 

Jason: That's okay. Yeah, you can bring it in Dutch. 

Roula: Belembering. [00:57:00] that the blockage, the obstacle, that's the word, the obstacle from making the move forward.

Roula: Totally. 

Jason: There's so many, I mean, a lot of it's habit in terms of not sharing, withdrawing not taking certain types of risk or, , in this belief that I have to do it right as a man or perfect. And if I'm not, then I'm going to fail. Yeah. Maybe that's the best summary I can have is. falling for the fallacy of I can never fail.

Jason: It's actually like, no, like just redefining failure as feedback. Like I'm always learning in my life. I'm going to try some things that are going to work. Some things aren't going to work, but I'm going to learn every time I try something. And if you apply that consistently over time, life transforms really fast.

Jason: Right. But a lot of men are so afraid of failing. They'll never take the risk. They'll never try. [00:58:00] They'll never ask for the raise. They never share the vulnerable thing with their partner. They'll never take the trip they always wanted to take. And then life goes by, like that. So part of why I like men's groups is, it's also infectious when we see other men start taking risks in their lives.

Jason: Emotional risks, career risks, adventure risks, , in a healthy way, in a sense. But it's like, oh wow, he went for it, and he looks so much happier. Maybe I should try going for it too. And, wow, he also went for it that once, and it didn't work out. But he, he was okay. We still love him. He learned from it.

Jason: He's fine. So maybe I could try something, and if it doesn't work out, I'll be okay, and I'll learn from it, and I'll be fine. And that's kind of the infectious nature of the groups I often see is, , we get inspired by each other to live our lives more fully, deeply, so that ideally, , the place we want to get as men if, is, you how would I have to live my life [00:59:00] now that if I found out I was going to die tomorrow, I would feel free.

Jason: What do I really want to do? What's really important to me? Who do I want to spend my time with? How do I want to live? How do I want to love? 

Roula: When you're talking about failure and support each other, see someone failing, learn, try, this is very hard in my perspective as a woman on the sideline. It's very hard. It's hard for a man to fail in front of the people he knows, the friends, the family, whomever, because they have to keep the face that we're successful, I'm doing it, I'm achieving my goals, I have everything under control.

Roula: But in a man group, they're allowed to fail. So if the whole world did not know about this failure, they still have this one place. 

Jason: Yeah. 

Roula: Do you see this happening in your group?

Jason: It's very freeing for men in part of what it starts to differentiate is my [01:00:00] self worth as a human being is not totally reliant on what I do or achieve.

Jason: Many men fall for that, that I am as only, I'm only as worthy as the things I do in the world. And if I haven't achieved those, I'm not worth it. Right. I'm not something. Right. And so. Part of what, , men in this work and myself get to start to differentiate and distinguish is, Oh, those things are great and I love to achieve them.

Jason: And even if I never achieved that, I'm still a good person. I love who I am. I love the relationships in my life. I'm proud of who I am. It's not based on, did I achieve this? And in a sense, was I successful? The real when I try to help move men towards is it's not about did you win or lose? It's, did you play full out?

Jason: Did you move towards your truth in what you want in the world? And when you do that repeatedly, you feel free, even if it wasn't [01:01:00] successful. And I work with a lot of guys who are considerably older than me. And I can tell you the biggest regrets most men die with are not the times they failed. It's when they're like, Ooh, I never went for it.

Jason: A failure, if a relationship burns out or a startup or a job doesn't go well, like it stings, it's there, but then, , a couple of years later, it's not the thing you're thinking about, 

Jason: it's. Yeah, I went for it. I'm really glad I went for that. I learned so much in that process about myself, which then I was able to bring into my next relationship or my next job or whatever. And that shift is, that's just a game changer shift for men. And it's not about winning or losing. It's, , are you actually playing the game so called, so to speak, of life?

Roula: Hearing you saying this, it makes me feel so compassionate with the men around me or the ones I hear, because what you're describing makes me also see so clearly that [01:02:00] men are not giving themselves the permission to slow down. At the same time, I'm thinking, but if they give themselves this permission and slow down, They will be judged, mostly at work. There is a lot of pressure and the pressure is real. So the more there are men groups at work, everywhere supporting each other. , We can make a change and I say we because I now from this conversation is it opens my eyes on I knew it's not like I didn't because this way I wanted to have this talk with you I know that men have it difficult I just don't feel in a position that I can talk about it because i'm not a man and this brings me to the question that distracted me a few minutes ago. Is that if this interview, if this podcast was with a host, a man host, the experience would also be so different. Like, [01:03:00] Goodness, I can't even imagine how much there will be things to talk about. Because you feel it, you see it, the host feels it and sees it.

Roula: And this is kind of awareness for us women to step into the world of men and see what's going on so we can have compassion and understanding. Which brings me to my question. And how can we women help men to feel compassion? they can give themselves permission and that you are tolerant too. 

Jason: Yeah, I think I've been saying this lately.

Jason: One of the greatest things you can do for a man in your life is just share appreciation for where, where do you see him trying hard? Doesn't mean he's doing a great job in it, or, , there might be a lot you have improvement there, but to acknowledge like, Hey, I see you're trying. , I see you're trying to show up more around the house [01:04:00] or you've been cutting back on work hours or I see how hard you work for our family.

Jason: Thank you. I see what a toll that takes on you and your body. Appreciation goes a huge way for men. Just, we want to take care of the people around us. Oftentimes we have a story, we're failing at it and when we just get a little appreciation, it's like Nourishment for the soul, water in the desert. So just appreciating the men around you in your life or even as imperfect they are, as flawed as they are, as failed, failing in certain things they are to show, to appreciate where they are trying and to acknowledge that.

Jason: That makes a big difference with men and then, yeah, to just let a man know, , I know there's a lot you experience that I don't necessarily understand. And I just want you to know, it's, it's okay that you don't always have it figured out. You don't have to do everything perfect. And I want you to be resourced and enjoy your life.

Jason: And I'm here to support you, and [01:05:00] I'm totally open to you also getting support from other men. , whatever that might be to kind of bridge that conversation. Because there is something I see that's pretty magical for men when they're just in a room with other guys. And there is that kind of just shared reality of, oh, you get it.

Jason: You get it! In a way that I imagine when women sit in circle with each other, they can often feel too of the pressures of being a woman and all that you have to deal with in the world. And when we can do that individually, , and then also be open to connecting with each other in these ways and just getting curious about each other is such a great thing.

Jason: Just the willingness to get curious, to try to learn more what's happening over there for you. And And particularly for men, I would say one thing you can do as a woman is if you are wanting to feel your man more and how, , get him more connected to his feelings. Oftentimes the best way for men to do that is to first ask them to just share [01:06:00] what are the sensations they're feeling in their body.

Jason: So not like, what are you emotionally? What are you feeling? But just like, yeah, what's happening in your body right now? And oftentimes men can, oh yeah, I do feel, I just feel a lot of weight on my shoulders. They can, they can start there just like, yeah, what are you feeling in your body right now? Does it feel tense?

Jason: Does it feel light? Does it feel nauseous? And that can be a gateway into those deeper emotions a lot of times, like we were talking about. And, and not always, sometimes they just might be like, yeah, my back's, my lower back's just really tight right now. But that's more, that's a lot more, at least you have something to work with there.

Jason: And I, I found the physicality of that is sometimes easier for men to answer than like, well, what are you feeling right now? , emotionally they're like I don't know. But it's like, well, what are you feeling in your body right now? As you're with me? Yeah, I do. My, my stomach doesn't feel good.

Jason: Okay. , that's a start. So that's another generous thing you can do. 

Roula: That's a hard [01:07:00] one because.

Roula: Do these answers come after you? taught them something? Because I find if I would ask this question the first time, I might not have an answer from my husband. Yeah, you might not. 

Jason: I mean, and that's a big part of what I do in men's groups when I lead or coach with men is slow them down, get them into their bodies and slow them down.

Jason: Once we slow it down and it's often, Oh, I can't. Yeah. Okay. Oh yeah. I am kind of feeling something right here. It's just, just below my navel or, , wherever. So it does take some training. Like I will be, , like we said, it takes practice. It's like any skill. It takes practice to build that awareness.

Jason: But it can happen, , faster than we think once, particularly once you make it the culture of a relationship, you're like, Hey, here's what I'd like us to do is even if we don't know what we're feeling, we can just slow down and name one [01:08:00] sensation we're having in our body. And then that becomes habit over time and then it'll get easier to name the sensation in your body and from there , you might layer in some emotions or things like that later on But that that is a big part of what I do in men's work and same thing It's the beauty of doing it in a group is when a man witnesses another man Getting more deeply connected to himself and naming his inner experience suddenly That man witnessing it has a new roadmap.

Jason: Oh, those are the kinds of things I can share and talk about, and it made sense to me. Okay, so we see it repeated, and then it becomes easier for us to do it ourselves as well. 

Roula: Sounds building trust. 

Jason: Yes, great way to put it. 

Roula: I liked what I heard from you on Instagram when you talk. Let me rephrase it. It's It's so easy when men are at work to go and do a workshop [01:09:00] and get new certificates and learn and grow. And on a personal level, what you mentioned, like men reads book, et cetera.

Roula: How can the work be done? Because learning is something and working is something else. Can you just Get me into that part. 

Jason: Yeah, I think there's a couple of things here. One, I talked about this earlier, but one of the amazing things about the time we live in right now is there is an endless amount of information we have access to.

Jason: So, and I work with many men and I do this myself, there's so many books we can read, podcasts we can listen to, courses we can take, but that's also very different from. How do I then start to embody this transformation in my life and make different decisions in my day to day, so a lot of men I know get stuck on information.

Jason: They're just learning more information, but their behavior is not changing. So [01:10:00]transformation is when we actually start to take that information and use it to inform the choices we're making in our lives. How we're showing up in the moment. , another way I say that is that's embodiment, so it's taking the ideas and it's moving them through our body.

Jason: And the best way to do that, I find, is start spending time with people who are deeper than you in whatever it is you're wanting to learn, whether that's a professional trade, music or artistry, or in this work, transformational work, a man who has a deeper presence has gotten more in touch with his emotions, who has done more meditative work or whatever that might be.

Jason: And when you're around those people, , it's like, imagine you want to get better at tennis. What's the best way to do that? You play somebody who's better than you at tennis, if you just played someone who's not as good as you, You're not really gonna have to improve. And so it's not so much about good or better, but it's just they're more developed.

Jason: They've, they've invested more [01:11:00] time there. So men's groups and men's work are a great way to do that, where you get exposed to other men who are a little deeper on the journey, which will accelerate your transformation. And they can help guide you more into yourself, more into your truth, more into your feelings, more into your bodies.

Jason: Because again, we love to do it right. Once we're guided as men, once we're like, Oh, that's the game we're playing. Great. Now I can play it. But a lot of times So many men, they just don't know where to start. We don't know the rules. We don't know how to win, so to speak. But when the game is, hey, let's become deep and connected to ourselves, our bodies, our emotions, our feelings, to talk about, , the direction of our life, and to support each other in the process, men, , we'll often transform pretty fast.

Jason: So that's where I would say, get involved with a group, a men's group, transformational group workshops, , there, there's so much more available these days than there ever was before. , You [01:12:00] can start if you don't have anything in your area, listening to podcasts or books or things like that, which will start moving.

Jason: But at some point you got to get into the room with some other people, ,