Roula: [00:00:00] How did you wake up today? I personally woke up and I feel So depressed because of the news in the U. S. 

Max: Oh, I knew that was coming. Yeah, unfortunately, I knew that was coming. People, you know, it's really not that complicated. People vote on their pocketbook and people have this sense that, you know, prices were going up under one administration, so let's try another one.

Max: I think at the end of the day, it's just about, you know, money. People do I feel really sure for people don't want to admit it. They'll talk about all these other issues and all the rest of it. But I think for a lot of the people, it's just like, well, wait a minute. My money doesn't go as far as to. Before, so let's try something different, you know, 

Roula: yeah, so the inflation 

Max: was incredible.

Max: I mean, this last couple of years, how the prices of things went up and people's pay didn't go up that fast. So I think a lot of people were just like, well, wait a minute, I'm working hard making all this money, but everything's costing that much more. Let's try something else. And everything ties to that.

Max: It's like, how do [00:01:00] I, how do I, you know, oh, maybe people are taking my jobs. Maybe that's the problem. Maybe that, you know, it's all just, you know, in the end of the day, people may. You know, tout all sorts of values and things like that. But people tend to vote based on the pocketbook in the end. 

Roula: Oh, my cat.

Roula: I don't know what he's doing. Just a second because I see 

Max: him. I see 

Roula: his 

Max: tail. 

Roula: Yeah. 

Max: Just a tail. 

Roula: He's gonna make his crazy round and I think we'll leave soon. 

Max: It's okay. I like cats. I like looking at cats. 

Roula: Yeah. And this one is a Bengal. So It's it's a pleasure looking at him. He's really pretty. 

Max: Wow. Wow.

Max: Like, was it actually like a little Bengal tiger? Yes. 

Roula: Like, like a little, oh my goodness. I forgot the word in English. [00:02:00] Not with the stripe, but with the circles. Oh 

Max: yeah right lion and tiger. I can't remember which is which. Leopard, there you go. 

Roula: Leopard, yeah. Right. Yeah. But he is very sweet.

Roula: His character is very sweet. 

Max: I 

Roula: think 

Max: if you're really good and in this lifetime we come back as some pet with a good owner, that's kind of a good life, eh? Just still do what you want, eat what you want, hang out, as long as you have a good owner. Obviously not all pets get a great owner. 

Roula: I have read that cats, they take the character of their owners.

Max: And Makes sense. We mimic behavior. I mean, that makes sense. I mean, any animal mimics the behavior for better or for worse of the people or the other creatures around. 

Roula: Yes. My first question to you today is what do you think make a [00:03:00] person kinky? 

Max: It's very, very complicated. For someone to be kinky, you have to be alive.

Max: Everyone has a kink. Everyone has this. I mean, if you were born and you have a life you have kinks. The real question that I find interesting is how many people don't think they're kinky. Because there's this thing that humans do where whatever I do is normal. You know, even if I do play some weird sport or have a particular interest, that's normal.

Max: You know, I grew up in a culture where You know, when I was a kid, playboy was still a big thing. So big boobs and a certain look was normal. So therefore I was normal, but then traveling the world and realized, well, no, like I was taught to fetishize a certain form. So I had a kink, I had a fetish, but I didn't know it.

Max: Everyone has that. We grow up with a culture. We grow up with influences [00:04:00] around us and we. Start to like things and some of those things we think is normal and it may be normal when our little group, it might be incredibly weird for another group or incredibly kinky for another group to use that. So what it takes to have a kink a life, if you're alive, you have a kink.

Max: Now you understanding that it is a kink or appreciating that or respecting other people's kinks. Well, that that's more of a process, but I guarantee. In the end, a kink is much simpler than people think. It's something that really excites you. Maybe you like a good conversation. Maybe you like a nice smile.

Max: Maybe you like beautiful eyes. You know, maybe you do like someone's hands or, you know, classic ones men always talk about and they don't even think it's a kink. Oh, I really, are you more of a boob man or an ass man? You know, somehow that's normal. Well, guess what? That's kink. If you're, if you're retracted someone Purely based on a particular attribute, you're, [00:05:00] that's a fetish and that's a kink, you know, don't think of it any other way.

Max: Like, oh, I know that, but that's normal, the feet, well, that's weird. Okay, so that body part and that body part is fine, but that body part is weird? That's silly, it's just a societal judgment. Bottom line, everybody's kinky, whether they realize it or not. Really kinky should be more becoming more self aware just to realize it really.

Max: Let me, maybe that's what, you know, there is this interesting thing I've noticed from talking to so many kinky people over the years. They really are. I don't want to sound arrogant or, well, I'm complimenting the community, I guess, but they are smarter. They're more self aware. They're more generally a little bit more educated if they have, if, if they know what it is and understand that, because it takes that sort of ability to sort of contrast and compare before you start to make those self discoveries that, oh goodness, I guess that is a bit of a kink.[00:06:00]

Roula: I love your explanation because it makes it so real and so close to home for everyone. We don't think of it as kink, we just give it as our, what attracts us to someone,

Max: Absolutely.

Max: Absolutely. 

Roula: It could be that the word kink could be replaced with attraction, and then it can be more accepted. 

Max: Or, or fed. I mean, fed. You know one of the things that I found confusing when I entered into the conversation about kink is that kink is actually a really big house. You know, the house that, you know, in this house that is kink lives largely two relatively separate communities within that.

Max: One is the BDSM community. Which is into bondage. They're into discipline. They're into play with power. Sometimes they're interested in play with pain. And in my personal experience, A small percentage [00:07:00] of that is actually anything to do with sex at all. It's non sexual. I would say, in my personal opinion, maybe 20 percent of people that are into BDSM, you know, mix sex into that.

Max: Sex may be something they may do BDSM, they may do sex later, but it's not necessarily part of BDSM. And now the other big house in the house that's called kink is fetishism. Fetishism is more what we're talking about right now. We're calling that kinks, but in, in, in kink terms, it would probably be more accurately called fetishes, things that really super turn you on, super attract you.

Max: But yeah, in that case, the word attractions or interests, I think works as well. I mean, it depends how strict it is. You want to define fetish, you know, if it's an absolute, you know, obsession, I don't think that's what most people are talking about, like, Oh, I can, I can only get up in the morning if I see you know, an armpit, because that's my thing, [00:08:00] you know, extreme obsession.

Max: I don't think that's what we're talking about. That's obsession and that's unhealthy. What we're talking about is much simpler. It's just, that's what turns me on. I really like a man with big hands or you know. A woman with great eyes, you know, that, that, that's one of the things that really gets me going, you know, so it's important to understand, you know, a little bit about the structure of the house that is kink.

Max: And then now we're not talking so much about BDSM because this is where it's a lot of confusion is in the goal. What about this? What about that? Well, that's not really a fetish. It's it's actually more of a role. It's more looking for certain sensations. That's what BDSM is about. Where fetishism is more about attraction.

Max: I like this, I like that. So I think it's important to make that distinction early on because I know when I started this process, I kept getting confused between, okay, what are we talking about now? Because some people will talk about it in the fetish context, in the what attracts us context, [00:09:00]and other people will talk about it in the identity.

Max: thing where I identify as a dominant, I identify as a submissive, I play this role, I play that role. That is a little different than simply in something that attracts you, although obviously the stuff gets mixed around, but it's important to I think clarify that early in the conversation so people hopefully won't get as messed up as I did, because it took me a while to figure out.

Max: Normally when you talk to To somebody, they're obviously talking from their perspective. And if they're coming from a BDSM perspective, they're going to talk one way. If they're talking from a fetishist perspective, they're going to talk another way. And they don't necessarily speak the same language, even though they all live in the house that is kink.

Roula: What brought you into this? How did you start getting knowledge of the kink world with fetish and BDSM to lead you to do your, your movie? 

Max: I'll try and give you a relatively short answer. I think I [00:10:00] was just always a weird kid. I was always just somebody that didn't fit in. And I didn't understand what that was, but I didn't really fit in with what I was told how I was supposed to be.

Max: In fact, I was mildly suicidal as a teenager. I didn't actually start enjoying my life until I left and came to Europe and then traveled for many years and started finding out that, to tell a surprise, not every country in the Has the same values. Not every country thinks the same way. Not every culture does things the same way.

Max: And that there was this big beautiful spectrum of Possibility and I felt more comfortable with that and I realized that I was more of a dominant person in the sense that I just didn't really follow couldn't really follow the rules. I wanted to make my own rules for better for worse. You know, I would go my own way.

Max: And I didn't really understand what that was until I read a book about kink and BDSM, talking about one of the com, com com things, especially on the BDSM side of the house of kink, is this idea of being dominant [00:11:00] or submissive. Dominant people tend to go where they want to go and do what they want to do, and, you know, hell be down, you know, and, and they can't really be any other way.

Max: And then I realized, oh, gee, I've been always like that. I've always preferred more, a little wilder sexual interactions and things like this. And I always knew I was pushing the boundaries, especially with what was going on in the culture at the time. But so I was always very aware of consent, you know, like, okay, like I would like to do this.

Max: I get that this might be something that, you know, might not be politically correct. Should we have a conversation about this? Is this something you want to Do and explore. Yes, it is great. Well, let's now enter into this. It was a way of me navigating who I was and what I wanted without necessarily being bound by what, you know, the society tells us.

Max: So I guess that was just a process that evolutionarily speaking, I just had [00:12:00] always been that way. And then I started being able to understand why it was that way and that there was a language to talk about it. 

Roula: It's I think we are in times today where we talk less about sex. We talk a lot about consent, which make us scared from enjoying our sexual life.

Roula: And you discovered this years ago where consent came naturally because you were self aware of what you want and needed to make sure the other person is on board. And 

Max: I'd like to say I was particularly self aware, but honestly, I think I was more just didn't want to get in trouble. I recognize that, you know, some of these things, you know, you don't want someone to come back and go, Oh my goodness, I can't believe that person tied me up and it wasn't, you know, my goodness, you know, like, or this or that.

Max: And like, I think. I would like to say I was self aware, but the truth is I was just wanted to be safe, wanted to, you know, I like to [00:13:00] joke, I'm too pretty to go to jail. I just wanted to make sure that this was cool with this person that I was interacting with, out of self preservation, to be honest. And later, I realized that, It was important to actually be, as I became more mature, I started realizing that, it was also the right thing to do.

Max: But in the beginning, I'm not going to lie. I mean, it was really just like, let's just, you know, there wasn't the conversations there is now about consent and ethical and, you know, informed ethical consent and all these things. Those conversations didn't exist as much. I just really wanted to. be clear so I didn't get into trouble of any kind.

Roula: Very good. It's, it's a good protection for both of you and whomever you're playing with. So can, can we say that the House kink developed with time into something safer? Or because, you know, people, when they think of [00:14:00] BDSM, probably mostly, they think of disrespect that people are forced to do things.

Roula: It's like all the play and the enjoyment is taken out from it, from the people on the sideline and think that this is wrong and only weirdo are doing it. Yeah. How do you 

Max: look at that? Disable. The label weirdo has been used to to malign groups of people since millennia. So I mean, it's just one of those words when you don't understand something, you go, okay, those are weird people.

Max: Though, you know, I can't have a conversation with those people. To speak to your first point about this notion of is it safer now? Yes and no in many ways it is safer because people are having those conversations. Thank you very much. That they might not have had, and they're more aware of it and with knowledge of [00:15:00] something, it becomes more likely you'll do it safely.

Max: Obviously, think of think of skiing down a mountain. The more you know about skiing, the safer it is to ski down that mountain. If you don't know anything about it and you strap on a pair of skis and go off a black diamond run, it's probably not going to go very well. So knowledge will always help you.

Max: The other. Why, why I say no is a lot of the old guard will say to you and perhaps quite accurately that It's not as safe as it was because in the old days, it was much harder to get into. It was much more structured and there was more sort of protocols to it. And you had to really want it. And there was a process where you had to first serve and then you had to be of service to community, then you had to, you know, earn your leather, they would say, you know, where you had to really say there was a very, very, it's much harder to get into, but you really had to go through a lot before you were able to pick up before you were allowed to pick up a whip and actually, or pick up something and actually hit someone.

Max: [00:16:00] So, you know and that still exists, but a lot of the old guard will often say, you know, that it's a little too easy for people to get into. You go to a kink party these days and somebody who's, you know, 20 years old. Box of, well, I'm a Dom and this and that, and you should just get, you know, serve me and, blah, blah, blah.

Max: And, you know, he probably just read a book or, you know, saw a movie or something and thought, Oh, this is fun. And I'm going to use it. It's a little, not really understanding. The scope of it and also with the submissives. Maybe it's just, Hey, I'm just a little lonely. I'm wanting to meet people. I hear this BDSM things picking up.

Max: I'm going to go in, I guess, identify as a submissive. Oh, that means I have to do whatever you tell me. Oh, okay. No, it doesn't, you know, no, you don't, as a submissive, you don't have to do everything a dominant tells you. You have to negotiate still. And no, as a dominant, you don't have, you don't have the sun, you know, universal key from the universe that lets you do anything you to anybody [00:17:00] who's submissive.

Max: But there are a lot of people who walk into the community for the first time, because it's so much more open than it used to be, who have a little bit of that, that, that sense, you know, a little bit of knowledge can be actually dangerous. It's like, yeah, I know how to strap on a pair, you know, using the ski analogy.

Max: Well, sure. I know about skiing. I know how to strap on a pair of skis. I'm so much farther ahead than everyone else. I see strapped on those skis down. Oh, you have to have a certain amount. So. Yes. And no, but it's like anything else. We have to go the way we people have to learn about it. Unfortunately, you know, people love to fall.

Max: But I just hope that the knowledge gets out quick enough that and I think it is gets up quick enough that people will learn quick enough that there won't be too many people that will fall into any of these traps of Doing things that they shouldn't do because they think of themselves as submissive or doing things that they shouldn't do because they think that themselves is dominant [00:18:00] without actually understanding the full implications of the process.

Roula: I think this is a goal from opening, opening up this conversation and maybe on my podcast and in the movie you made, people become more aware of the possibilities and where to place themselves, because you know, when we don't talk about these things, it will go wrong, or the wrong book could be recommended, or a good book will be wrongly understood.

Roula: As long as we talk. This is my goal also from the podcast is to bring up a topic and talk about it so that everyone feel empowered to like it or hate it. That's not a problem, but to do the right thing by themselves. And what you're saying is that when a person wants to go into the BDSM scene, it's good to educate themselves or maybe find a mentor or get the right questions and not just go for it [00:19:00] thinking, Oh, this is going to be okay.

Roula: There are experience that he used to it. 

Max: Absolutely. You know, society will often say to us, just do this. Don't do that. And they're kind of like our parents. They're trying to protect us. You know, don't just don't climb that ladder. You might fall, but they don't want to tell you the nuances of why you might fall off.

Max: It takes a lot of conversation is to sort of. And a lot of knowledge to sort of see things as nuanced and then to fully understand when it is appropriate to do something or not. It, it, it is, it's necessary and society have a lot of these conversations and really get to know it. The thing that I tried to do with my film Touch Pink, and I want to try and instill on people, if you remember one thing, please remember this, if it's a circle.

Max: If there's a lot of conversation, open and honest conversation, and by the way, this is everything. This isn't just kink. This is business. This is [00:20:00] personal life. This is non kink too. Really try and, if you're going to interact with someone in an intimate way, In any or in a serious way, have lots of conversations with them, have really open conversations with them, try and give as much information when you arrive on some decision, try to make sure they fully understand the implications of what you're doing and you fully implicate, understand the implications of what you're doing, that it's informed, it's ethical, and that you decide to do whatever you decide to do when you do that thing.

Max: Enjoy the thing. Yeah. You know, have some way just in case the thing isn't going the way you want that you can just, can we take a minute here? Stop, safe word, whatever you want to call it. Can we put this on pause for a second? Because maybe something isn't going out the way that you expected it to do.

Max: And, okay, if everything goes fine, and then afterwards go, so how was that for you? Did that, was that okay? Was, did you get what you expected out of that? Yes or no? And then finishing the circle with, let's talk about it again. [00:21:00] Everything we do, if we do it as a circle, that's compassionate, that's caring, and that's ethical.

Max: And it's just that simple. Talking openly without shame, arriving on that decision, coming to some sort of consent. doing that thing with some sort of safety valve, checking in with that person and talking again, that circle. And that's what my film is all about is the circle. Because conversely, it's, and you realize it's not about the activity.

Max: If I, if I walk over to you and just slap you across the face, I'm just doing what I want. I don't care if that's abuse. If we have a conversation, turns out you really like to be slapped in the face. And we say, how hard and what, why is this? And why do you like it? And open hand or this or that? And, oh, you like this and that.

Max: Okay, great. Well, Sure. I can give that a go. And so just in case if, if it, you know, I hit you too hard or something, whatever, how are you going to let me know, or if you want me to stop, stop that. And by the way, once we're done this, what, how does that, what does the aftercare look like? Do you want [00:22:00] me to just walk away and be kind of pretend I'm cruel?

Max: You want to hug, you want me to make you a cup of tea, you know, great. We've talked about all this stuff. Okay, great. And now I do the same thing I did. Now that's perfectly fine and we have a mutually enjoyable experience. It wasn't about being slapped across the face. It was about the process behind it.

Max: The ethics behind it. And that's the most important thing I try and get across in the film. And I try and get across if you have to learn one thing about kink, just do that open, honest conversations without shame, hopefully those people can share as best as they can about their interests and you can find something you might want to do together.

Max: And if you do find something you want to do together, you know, figure out what that thing is, make sure both people understand the full implications. Cause some of this stuff is more difficult than others. Some of this stuff is more dangerous than other stuff, but so make sure you're both, you know, fully aware of what you're doing and, and you have some sort of safety valve just in case it [00:23:00]doesn't quite go the way you expected it to go.

Max: You know, and also before you start know what It's going to look, how are we going to finish this up? What, how are we going to end this? So we know what your aftercare looks like. You do all that stuff and or do that and understand that process. I think the rest of this stuff will just sort itself out.

Max: You know, if you understand the circle, if you understand how to be a compassionate human being, put aside kink, put aside anything else, just. Just doing that, you know, I think that puts you in pretty good stead. You know, and that's the one thing that I try and push the most. And the one thing that I think the best place to start, you'll learn all the fancy titles and all the names of this and that as you go along, but if someone brings up something like, Oh, well, I'm really into figging and what's, you know, would you like to be fit?

Max: Yeah. Are you into figging? And you, and you go, well, I don't know what that is. Oh, well, let me explain it to you. As opposed to how you don't have to know what all the stuff is. Someone brings up an activity that they want to do with you. And you don't say, well, [00:24:00] could you explain that to me? What is that?

Max: Because believe me, if they bring it up, they really want to explain it to you because it's their thing. So, you know, just, you know, just. You know, be ready to have those conversations. And, and if someone brings up something you don't understand, don't feel shy, but, well, what is that? Can you explain how do you do that?

Max: And, you know, tell me more about what that is, as opposed to learning every I mean, there's tens of thousands of kinks in the world, you know it's just have those conversations. So just learn to have conversation, learn to get informed, consent, and learn to play safe, you know. 

Roula: You know, these conversations I'm going to bring us back to the audience because I don't know how kinky my audience is.

Roula: Everybody's kinky. 

Max: I told you that already. Yeah, exactly. I do believe everybody's kinky. They're far more kinky than they realize, But the 

Roula: conversations are not there, you know, and where am I going? Give me a moment because I'm going to explain it. So what [00:25:00] happens is that in conventional relationships or, you know, once you're in a conventional relationship, you feel like, yeah, this is what you have to do for the rest of your life.

Roula: And with time, the conversations are gone about intimacy. People just stop having fun, maybe fantasizing, but not having the conversation. Because in the relationships, the normal, I don't want to say normal ones, because all relationships can be normal. In the, let's say, conservative conventional relationship, the couples stop talking about that.

Roula: There is a lot of ego going on in there, and a lot of dissatisfaction. And they prefer not to have sex rather than tell each other what they like, even if what they like is maybe a slap on the ass or choking or a bit more of sex. So these conversations, when they listen to what you're saying. [00:26:00] I hope it encourages them to, it's okay to talk about that.

Roula: But what I want to touch exactly on here and ask you about it from what you're describing is where would the ego go? And where would the self confidence go when people are asking for what they want and the other persons are like, Oh, so what I'm giving you is not enough. Or, it's not what you like, so go and look for someone else.

Roula: These conversations happen a lot. How does it, how does this training could go? 

Max: Yeah, well, yeah, this is a cultural thing too. I don't know who said it, but I've heard it said that at least in past culture, men weren't really ever allowed a full spectrum of emotions. We're allowed to be sort of slightly proud of ourselves and slightly angry.

Max: Everything else isn't manly. So it's, you know, obviously ill prepared to sort of deal with a lot [00:27:00] of the things that come up in life. Just kind of paralyzed when you're feeling sad or you're paralyzed when you're feeling melancholy, these kinds of things. So I guess first. You know, there has been a lot of talk in a lot of movies and TV about mental health generally to have the ability to express who you are and, and, you know deal with some of these insecurities and deal with these things because we all have them.

Max: I think a lot of the things that, you know express themselves as, Oh my God, how could you was really just an inability to process, you know, like, Oh my God, you want to do that? Oh, I, I, you know, I can't process what you're saying to me. So just don't do it. You're weird. You know, it's, it's, it goes down to mental health.

Max: It goes down to having the ability. And, I honestly do think we need to give men a bit of a break because honestly, there's been a lot of cultural shift and cultural change. I think maybe that's why certain political things are moving the way they are, cause it's all going a little too fast for some guys and they don't know how to handle it.

Max: So there's kind of doing [00:28:00] this knee jerk reaction of, voting for whoever they think will stop it because they need a break. They can't handle it. So just, you know, be a little patient with these people to try and find it. And I think kink does that too. Because one of the core things in kink that I love is role play.

Max: You know, a lot of people will fetishize playing a certain role, or maybe someone's going to be, okay, I'll be the, the bottom, I'll be the submissive, you're the dominant, and that's that, like, helps me balance things out, or all sorts of other things. It's almost like, as children, we learn about the world through play, and kink, in a lot of cases, really just adults learning to play again.

Max: You know, how do I freshen up my relationship? Maybe they're not ready to go to figging, but maybe we can do a, how about I, I, I have a thing for feet. I've never really mentioned before. Would you mind terribly if I like kissed and massaged your feet person may or may not be [00:29:00] that into it, but there'll probably be like, especially if they're your partners, like, actually my Pete could really use that.

Max: Great. Okay. You know, giving them the space to try something. So, yeah, I mean, you Give people the space to find these things, give people the space to adapt, and that again, Only starts through mental health and only starts through having trust, you know, it's hard, especially get into a relationship if it was established in more traditional ways, you know, and both people are to blame, by the way you know, maybe, you know, he was looking for X, Y, Z, and she was looking for X, Y, Z, they got X, Y, Z, they came together, the relationship is based on these three values that they thought were important in the beginning, and it's hard for them to go actually, you know Actually, that's really not as important as I thought it was.

Max: You have to sort of write for the beginning. Think less about specific things and more about spectrums [00:30:00] right now. I'm a little bit more like this and a little bit more like that, but I'm a fluid human being and I might change. Is that cool? You know, I think of myself as a manly man. Maybe now I want to be a little bit switchier someday.

Max: I think of myself as this. And what about you? If you have early conversations, which are very typical with kinky people about. We're fluid. We're going to probably change, and I hope that's okay with you. Then I think that will put you in better stead as well, as opposed to, I'm always going to be about X, and I'm always going to be about Y, and I'm always going to be about Z.

Max: I mean, nothing ever stays the same, you know? 

Roula: We change, we change with the years, with the seasons, with our ages, and sometimes in many cases, we are afraid to admit that what we used to like is now different, and we see things differently, because there is some kind of, I know you and I trust you the way you are, so if you change, then it's like you're this new person.

Roula: [00:31:00] It doesn't have to be. It's nice to change. I personally encourage people to embrace their change and explore because we don't know what we like until we try. 

Max: We change on so many levels, you know, we change in what's the conversation going on in our society. We've also changed on a simple biological level.

Max: I don't know if it's been proven out, but I've, I've always heard. And it's certainly been my experience that, you know, a man's sex drive probably peaks at about 18 and slowly goes down from there, you know, I'm finding, you know, I found most of my twenties and thirties, just thinking about sex all the time.

Max: I mean, that was it. I mean, I I'm having a cup of coffee and I'm thinking about having sex with the barista. I'm walking down the street and thinking, you know, like all the time. And now I'm getting to an old brand and actually find myself not always thinking about sex. I'm like, Oh, Oh, wow. Okay. Where I live in Montreal, I lived in Montreal and Montreal is a place where women are very interested in what they're interested in and not very [00:32:00] unapologetic.

Max: And you know, finding myself. Turning down, situations that have never turned down before, you know, so we're just into, you know, our, our biology changes as well, you know, yeah, I like to joke that, you know, can't we have a conversation first now is, is, is like, won't you buy me a drink first or something?

Max: Can we get to know each other a little bit now, which, you know, wouldn't have mattered before it's, you know, I feel that the, the emotional connection is more important now than it used to be. Okay. And maybe that's age, maybe that's intellect, I don't know, but It's also life 

Roula: experience. Yeah, yeah. You know, But I do find 

Max: that 

Roula: Go ahead.

Roula: Sorry, continue. 

Max: No, I'm just saying, generally speaking, maybe it's Montreal, but I find that, and I think it's a good thing, women are more open about what they want and very specific about it, you know, than they used to be. I 

Roula: noticed this with the conversations because, [00:33:00] you know, when we women sit together, we have more open conversations and vulnerable conversations than probably men sitting together.

Roula: And I don't know, for my listeners, I know we should be including all genders, but my experience is in majority men and women. And because women are open about the conversations, we inspire each other in what we like and where we stand. And I can speak for myself since I'm 50 and the worry of having children and caring for children is much less, I'm feeling that now is the time for me to live again, because for women, it takes so much time thinking about bearing children and being able to have, little babies and take care of them.

Roula: So we miss so many years from our life. Just worried about that and being exhausted and after 50 this bring me to something is that I had this [00:34:00] conversation with my husband that women after 50 they look for younger guys because they're probably at that age. I say probably but now I can confirm it. And after 50, we want to explore, we want to live because the worries and the family is settled.

Roula: And well, my husband was telling me men look for younger women when they're older, not because of the sex, but because of the status. And this, this sounded, for me, sounded true because if women after 50 are more sexually active, then yeah, they will be looking for younger people. And this is, this is like changing in the seasons and just accepting who we are.

Roula: I'm not sure who's listening to me, but I do hope my kids are listening. Or my family, because that would be very eye opener for them. At the end, I hope that everyone feel empowered to like what they [00:35:00] like and keep the respect and the consent and continue living their life. I want to go back to your movie a little bit because in Touch King, I've seen people from different backgrounds, all walks of life, and It was touching.

Roula: Sometimes I felt so emotional listening to them because they found the place that makes them safe and happy, heard, understood. And outside this place, which is the King and the BDSM, there were regular people. respectful, they have their jobs, their families, they're not bad people whatsoever. Can you bring me a little bit with you with these people that you have interviewed in your documentary and what impact they are leaving on the scene from your movie?

Max: Well, I think [00:36:00] First off, I think it's important, and I think a little bit of the theme that's developing through this podcast is that everybody's kinky. Everybody is into this, whether they realize or not. And I think speaking to that, there's this duality in everyone. It's okay to be a polite, respectful person.

Max: In fact, it's well advised. If I'm coming into your house and the protocol is to take off my shoes, when I enter, I take off the shoes. If the protocol is to leave the shoes on, I leave the shoes on. If the protocol is to bring you a bottle of wine or an orange or You know, to kiss you three times, kiss you two times, give you a hug, whatever the protocols are based on your culture.

Max: I'm going to follow those because I'm a respectful human being and I'm going to honor the culture, you know, and that's fine, that's one side. Now, if I get to know you, like you were saying with your girlfriends and stuff, you have conversations a lot more intimate. Once we get to know, we can, we can have conversations about, you know particular kinks and particular interests and see if we connect on those levels.

Max: And it's okay to be two people. I mean, it's okay, just because you might be a wild, crazy, in [00:37:00] fact, most of the people that are the best at this, you would never know, because they are so respectful and are so like this and then the other side of them is so intense and so fun. It's like literally two different people.

Max: And I think that's healthy. I really do think it's healthy. There's a public you, and there's a private you. The public you has to get along at work and be polite. And when you see. You know, get, get a certain amount of respect in your community and the private you can be whatever you want to be, you know, I respect people that want to sort of be show who they are all the time.

Max: But sometimes I wonder if they might be scaring too many people sometimes, you know, if they're, if they push it a little too hard, too fast, that's, you know, other people's decision. But I think. Duality is just a natural thing, you know, I, I was speaking to a friend of mine this morning about who's a dominatrix and saying, well, at least this would be good for business because the more conservative the [00:38:00] world is culturally, the more people that will go outside of their families and outside of their relationships to professional sex workers.

Max: Because they still want this. In fact, sales are going to go up now because they're going to have to be more closeted about this. So, you know, I'm sure that nobody really wanted that, but at the same time, from a business point of view, business is going to be good for dominatrixes for the next four years.

Roula: There's a blooming business. Well, if, if I want to. mentioned is that we're not talking about people cheating and doing things outside their marriages or their partnerships, et cetera. We're talking about people who are agreeing and living their life the best way they think it's good for them and for the others.

Roula: Cause you know, sometimes when there are topic, people think that you're fostering behavior. [00:39:00] And some other get offended. And this is not what we mean in here. It's good to have conversations. 

Max: That's an important distinction. It's like, I mean, there are two things here. I was joking about the professional side of of this, but the much larger community is just the general kinky community that just generally wants to do this stuff and have those conversations.

Max: And I, for them you know, it is always going to be joyful, but again, it is always a matter of. cultivating the two sides of your personality. 

Roula: Yes. So can we say that in these days where people are seeking more excitement and there is a lot of social media stuff and the eyes are more open about what's this outside in the world.

Roula: What are the things they have to pay attention to before they jump into an adventure of play? 

Max: Being safe again, that [00:40:00] circle. You know, remember the circle, remember the circle and there's four parts to the circle negotiation where you're having open and honest conversations and you're really talking about whatever and asking lots of questions and finding out about that other person, you know, getting that consent, making sure they understand what they're consenting to having some safety valve safe word sort of situation and play and then checking in with the person afterwards.

Max: Remember that. And it doesn't really matter what you do. If someone comes, you say, well, my whole thing is to I'd love to find someone to I don't know, do fire play and that, you know, like, oh, sure, let's do it. That's a really crazy thing to say yes to right away because it's a very complicated thing.

Max: It's can, if someone knows what they're doing, it, it can be quite an experience. I've never tried it myself. I've seen it, but if someone approached me and I was remotely interested, I would ask a lot of questions before I would agree to it. Yeah. Find out the [00:41:00] person knows what they're doing, find out exactly what kind of sensation could I expect to get from this.

Max: You know, a lot of people, it's not sexual, so sometimes it's a feeling a, a pain. It can be a humiliate, it can be a people. Some people love to be tied up with rope and apparently I've heard it described as a hug. It feels like a really nice hug. I'm like. That doesn't really seem what it looks like to me, but I guess someone intimately tying you and bringing their hand around and put wrapping rope around you.

Max: I guess I could see that. So just, you know, ask lots of questions. Don't be shy. And hopefully if that person won't answer your questions, move on. And hopefully that person will give you information. So just, you know, ask lots of questions. That's more important than anything else. 

Roula: I like the part in where this is all.

Roula: Play, and it doesn't have to end up in, in sex or whatever. It could be just play to [00:42:00] get the sensation that every person or that person who desires it, asking for it. And I hope that people listening will take a moment to think of the sensations that they like to have, because I don't think we take the moment to think about that.

Roula: Or things pass by quickly, and we don't give them any attention. 

Max: You're absolutely right. In fact, I've often talked about this, this overarching theory I have about kink, because having met so many different people from dominatrices to spankos to leather people to latex people to a million different communities that all live in the house that is kink, they all use different language to explain this, and they all have sort of different starting points.

Max: You know, like if you're in a femdom situation, you're probably going to start with the premise that all men want to serve, you know and women. I'm not going to argue the point [00:43:00] or whatever, but it's just, you, there's a certain premise in the house and you're part of the Spanko community that well, a lot of Spankos people that like to spank each other often say, it's not even a kink at all.

Max: That's just normal. That's the way the universe is meant to be. You know, we're not kinky at all. We just like to be, do give and take spanking. So. But in the end, I believe it boils down to three things you should always have in mind, and I call it like red, green, blue, RGB, like how TVs project color. Red, you know, your focus, what you're thinking about.

Max: I'm thinking about the rope, I'm thinking about you, I'm thinking about, a particular sensation, something that's really turning me on in my mind, the focus. The green is the role or the identity I have in that moment. I'm feeling submissive. I'm feeling dominant. I'm feeling worthless. I'm feeling masculine.

Max: I'm feeling feminine. I'm feeling a million different things you could be feeling, but who you feel like in the moment and blue, and that's what maybe is the sensation you're seeking. Everyone thinks it's about sex. It may or may not be the sensation you're seeking, maybe an [00:44:00] orgasm, but it may not be, it may be intimacy.

Max: It may be humiliation. It may be pain. It may be pride. It may be a whole bunch of other feelings you're looking for, but. It's not always about orgasm, but you are seeking a sensation and for many people it's, it's intimacy. It's just connecting on another level, that really deep connection that, you know, that night where you've had this long, amazing conversation with someone you feel like really connected to that person.

Max: Maybe you didn't have sex with them, but you have this real, like, my God, we've just had brain sex or something, you know, or I feel an intimate connection to this person. That's a powerful feeling. And some people, that's what they want. Yeah. So just breaking it down again, it's like we, in any given scene, we're thinking about what we're thinking about, you know, we're feeling the right, okay, I'm right now I'm thinking about the podcast.

Max: I'm trying to like be focused on this. This has got my focus attention. I'm dealing, I'm still okay on my role. I guess I'm supposed to be a bit of [00:45:00] an expert right now. Okay. I'll try and be a bit of an expert right now. I mean, I have opinions. I think a lot of people know a lot more than me, but for the sake of this, I'm going to, my role is an expert.

Max: And I'm hoping at the end of this, I feel like, Oh, I did a good job. I think I did a good job. That's it. Everything is like that in life. We we're focused on what we're focused on. We feel how we feel and we want. Whatever result we want from it and kink sex business doing a podcast is all the same thing, you know in a BDSM context Maybe I'm I'm interested in the smell of rope and I'm gonna be the dominant and I want to feel powerful at the end of this You know, whatever it's it's those three things and that's everything in life as well People act like some of this stuff is just a weird other stuff.

Max: Everything was weird other stuff till it wasn't And some stuff that some stuff that has been normal now would be the weird other stuff. I mean, certainly Victorian swimwear would be, is actually a kink now. People wear Victorian swimwear, clothing [00:46:00] is a kinky thing. People, one of the most, one, a rising kink is what they call 50s household.

Max: It's basically trying to sort of act like it's 1952 again, you know, it's like that what was normal is now a kink. You know, it's all kinky or all. you know, part of the human thought, you know, how people think. 

Roula: You bring me thinking to something whenever I'm on social media or I don't know, all over around me, there is this, this big emphasis that we, and it's true.

Roula: To a certain extent, we need to go out and do endurance sports and feel happy and have the ice bath and do all these things in nature, which is beautiful. And there is a lot of talk about how this will help our mental health, will help us be happy. But there is a little talk about some people. Don't want to do that.

Roula: Some people want to have an [00:47:00] intimate conversation because that will fulfill their, their soul, their mental health. And these are things we don't talk about because we still think, no, no, no, you can't have, come on, you can't have kinky conversation with someone. This is ridiculous. It's embarrassing. Go and sport with someone.

Roula: It's nice to have it normal with people we trust, start building it up a little bit. I know that since the moment I have intimate conversations about our longings, my husband and I, we're much happier. And I'm not, I'm saying intimately we're happier. We feel more connected rather than not talk about it and talk only about sports and how it make us feel.

Roula: So yes, What I, the message I want to give here is that sometimes we like something, that other thing is weird. It doesn't make it wrong. We just have to search for people who likes it too, so we can [00:48:00] feel fulfilled. 

Max: Absolutely. And although I believe there is a big body mind connection, I think the healthier our bodies are, the healthier our minds are, the healthier our minds are, the healthier our bodies are.

Max: These things connect just like nature versus nurture. I think it's probably good advice to eat right and exercise if you can. But it's also good advice to have deep meaningful conversations that really connect you. And some people will. Find it easier to have the deep meaningful conversations and some people will find it easier just to go out and run up a mountain, you know, and that achieves whatever that achieves.

Max: But you're right. In the end of the day, we, we, it's okay to be who you are, even if you find yourself feeling like you're swimming against the tide. Maybe everything you're seeing right now is all you need to do is exercise and nobody's talking about meaningful intellectual conversations and you feel the odd one.

Max: It's okay. You are going to swim against the tide. Sometimes cultures change and what we value in a culture changes. [00:49:00] That's what made me happiest when I started traveling is to realize that to just know that to see that how different cultures simply valued things differently. And when you grew up in one culture, you think, Oh my God, I don't fit in.

Max: I'm, I'm I'm not gonna make it. Just to know. that other cultures and other places don't think that. That's enough. That usually lets you feel like you can breathe again, that you're not necessarily such an oddball after all. 

Roula: How do you, how do you like to end this episode? Is there something special like that you like people to know?

Max: What's coming to mind right now is that I think it's important to, if you remember one thing from this, this discussion we've had is to be a little bit more comfortable about exploring your kinks, understand there's a world out there that, you know, we'll welcome you in a world where perhaps you can find a little bit more fulfillment, you know, go to a munch, go to a kink party.

Max: I don't even go to think. [00:50:00] Things that aren't kinky anymore, because at least when you go to a kink party, you'll meet people that will have more open conversations. So you can have conversations about things that maybe you've never really had a conversation about, or hear about things you've never. So, I just, I guess the closing thought would be just to learn about kink, and don't be afraid.

Max: To go to some event or go to a munch or talk to kinky people, you know, have a peek behind that door. I think it'll be, it's richly rewarding. And for some, and the other thing is some people are like, Oh, I'm not ready for this wild activity. I don't, I'm not ready for this kind of thing. I always like to point out, and I think you'll find very quickly, if you explore the kink world, you're safer at a kink party than you are walking into your local sports bar.

Max: Because at a kink party, although there might be Crazy people dressed in all sorts of wild ways and things happening in the background that you may or may not have ever seen before. Nobody's going to touch you without your consent. And if they do, [00:51:00] there's usually people that there's a job to throw your ass out.

Max: If, if you're, you're the most important thing that's pretty universal in kink parties is your safety. And your consent. So even though you may, it may look like the craziest thing, you're probably safer in a sports bar. Nobody's going to slap your ass at a sports bar or nobody's going to slap your ass at a kink party where they might at a sports bar without, your consent.

Max: So it's, it's a world worth exploring. It's a safer world than you would possibly imagine and in a very fulfilling world. So I just encourage people to learn about kink more and to go to a party, go to a munch and just start talking to kinky people.