Roula: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Life Affairs Podcast. This is a place where we share life experiences and the many lessons learned by just living. Join me to immerse ourselves and take a closer look at the stories that shaped and define us. Just remember, there's no judgment and lot of understanding on today's episode of the Life Affairs Podcast.

Roula: My episode today is incredibly insightful because we will talk about topics that will resonate with you in your personal life, your interactions in your social life with work, , colleagues, relationships, everything. And my guest and I, we will dive deep in topics such as ego. Arrogance, defensiveness, and the intricacies of communication.

Roula: We will talk about topics that we encounter [00:01:00] every day, but they're not easy to talk about or to cope with. Kevin Palmieri is the co-founder of Next Level University, a non bullshit holistic approach to elevate your wealth, health, and love life. And he's bringing a. A lot of experience and knowledge on these topics 

Roula: our conversation will be about everything from the importance of vulnerability to getting out of our comfort zone and the nuances of giving and receiving feedback. You might want to take notes or save it because. We will give you a lot of tips and advices, and you might want to come back to it in those moments that are very dire, where the communication is on the edge of breaking or succeeding.

Roula: This is why I want you to, with an open mind, listen to [00:02:00] this episode. Sit back and get ready to grow. Let's go. 

Roula: Okay. Okay. So let's dig into this. I've been waiting for so long to talk about this and it's going to be a different episode than usual because I'm not gonna go through you telling me your story. I want to learn from you. and get insight into all these practical tips and tricks that you use on the NLU podcast.

Roula: I'm following you, every new episode I listen to it, and there is so much value in it. with a few points that attract me because these are topics that I like to talk about and I look for the right person to talk about them with. And that's you. 

Kevin: I appreciate it. I'm excited. I'm excited to go wherever you want to go.

Kevin: I'm a, I'm an open book and I will go as deep as we can go. 

Roula: [00:03:00] Last time when we, when we had, I think, issues with the connection, I wanted to start with ego, but I changed my mind 

video1516347461: because 

Roula: I noticed ego will come up in so many things that we're going to talk about. I want to start to talk about arrogance and we walk around.

Roula: We think people are arrogant. They might be self confident. Or they might be just shy and looking arrogant, protecting themselves. What is arrogance and why is it so confusing? 

Kevin: Yeah, my definition of arrogance now is confidence without competence. So I've had a lot of people over podcast thing that have reached out and tried to give me advice.

Kevin: And I'm open, I'm a sponge, I'm all for advice. But sometimes [00:04:00] the advice came across as, I know better than you do, even though I've never done what you do every day. And to me, too much overconfidence with under competence is Arrogance. One of the examples I used to use is my my grandmother. I love my grandmother.

Kevin: She's the sweetest when she's watching baseball She will say well, I can't believe that person missed that pitch No with no disrespect mima. I don't know if you could hit a 96 mile an hour fastball either, right? So it's just that The confidence to do something without the confidence. I think that is kind of my definition of arrogance in the world The reason it's so challenging is because, to your point, the person who is seeing somebody else as arrogant might be very insecure.

Kevin: So then the, the delta. Might be very big and they might think they're arrogant when they're not. But I think the only real way to tell is to see somebody do something in action, or how does somebody [00:05:00] respond after they try something they've never tried before they make a mistake and they fail for lack of better phrasing.

Kevin: What is their response? Do they make excuses or do they own it? If they own it, maybe they're just really confident. If they make excuses, then maybe they're in the bucket of arrogant is what I would say. 

Roula: And how do we deal with these people? So let's take the example you just given. Someone, let's say at work, or in our daily life with our friends at home, made a mistake.

Roula: And instead of owning it, try to make it look like as it's first, they didn't make the mistake, they knew what they're doing, or they just avoid talking about it. 

Kevin: It depends on what your relationship with the person is. If it's somebody that you're not going to see that often. So there's a couple of different ways to go with this.

Kevin: I have a, I have a firm belief that the level of feedback you give to somebody is directly connected with the level [00:06:00] of the relationship. So if I have never met you and I've never spoken with you before, I'm going to be very careful with the way that I give feedback. Also, I think there's a correlation between the amount of feedback you give And the amount you care for the relationship.

Kevin: So, let's say I'm going through the checkout aisle in the grocery store, and somebody says something to me that's just factually incorrect. Is it really worth me having a conversation and saying, Hey, just so you know, the word that you just used, isn't really the correct word. Probably not because is the risk worth the reward?

Kevin: I don't know. This person might not like me that might wreck their day. They might not even care. It's probably not worth it. So I think it depends if it's somebody that you're working really close with, you could practice a minute of vulnerability and say, Hey, Kev, it kind of made me feel insignificant when you said that you could do the job that [00:07:00] I do just as well.

Kevin: And then when you tried, and it didn't go the way you wanted it to go, you just made it seem like It was just because you weren't trying or because the weather was a certain or you didn't get enough sleep or whatever it is I didn't feel very seen there. Now again, that's a very courageous brave thing to do so I think it depends on the level of the relationship you have with a person and is the risk really worth the reward?

Kevin: And then from there, it's just the tactics of how do we start the the vulnerable conversation? What's the relationship we have with a person? You But yeah, I think the first question is, is it really worth having that conversation? Or is it more a pain in the butt than it might be worth? I'm not gonna have that conversation with my grandmother.

Kevin: She doesn't, it's my grandmother. She, she, it's fine. It's not, it's not going to really affect the way she lives her life. So it's probably not worth having that. 

Roula: Anyway, 

Kevin: definitely not. No, definitely not. 

Roula: It's hard to change their ways. The older I talk to myself, [00:08:00] well, 

Kevin: they say it's, it's harder to teach an older dog, newer tricks.

Kevin: And that's because you're, you're just wired. You already have so much wiring and so much, so much experience in that. It's not impossible, but it definitely might be more challenging. 

Roula: Well, these days are changing because on your podcast and on my podcast, this is what we're doing. We're making factual episodes on how we can still change our behavior, no matter who we are and how old we are.

Roula: Yes. That's the goal. You touched on something that I experienced personally. One day I have posted on my Instagram a reel and usually when I'm making an episode before I publish it, I do spend time on my episodes. And before I publish it, I listen to it while I'm walking, while I'm driving, but like, I like to experience it, especially when I started with podcasting, [00:09:00] I like to experience my episodes in different settings.

Roula: So I put myself in my listeners shoes. So I, I posted something in there and the meaning of the things I do for you to get you the best episode. And then I had a podcaster contacting me telling me, Oh my goodness, did you do all of this? Why? There must be an efficient way. We have to jump on a call. I have to tell you how to do it better.

Roula: And I'm like, but this person missed out the point. And I felt that this person is arrogant. Telling me what to do while they don't really know the purpose of my message. 

Kevin: Yeah. As somebody asked me one time, we were talking about feedback and we were talking about adding value and they said, what is a requirement to add value to someone?

Kevin: And I said, I don't, nobody's ever asked me that before. I said, honestly, permission. Yeah. [00:10:00] You can't just reach out to someone and say, Hey, you're doing it wrong. This is the way to, you can't doesn't work. It doesn't, it doesn't really work unless you are so incredible at what you, what you do. And everybody knows who you are.

Kevin: Maybe that's a different conversation, but I can't tell you how many messages I get from people on LinkedIn who talk to me about growing my podcast or talk to me about making money with my podcast. And. It's abundantly clear. They have no idea who we are, what we do, because you can just tell by the message.

Kevin: We'd love to have this guest on your show for you. We don't have guests. We haven't had guests in three years. You very clearly didn't do the research that you're claiming to do. So yes, I think that's a very, that's a very common thing, unfortunately. And just going back to that first point, people, human beings want to feel heard.

Kevin: They want to feel seen. And they want to feel valued and that person that reached out didn't feel any of that person that reached out [00:11:00] made you feel none of those. 

Roula: It's probably not 

Kevin: going to be a, it's not going to be a very good interaction, unfortunately. 

Roula: True. I take in the things you said that person want to be seen, heard, valued.

Roula: How come when we give feedback, all these three are like shot dead?

Kevin: I think a lot of people unfortunately give more feedback than the person can handle. I really, I really feel that it's, I think feedback is constructive to the degree that you think you can do something about it. I'm very open to feedback when it comes to being a better person. Speaker communicator, because I feel very confident in the fact that I can take the feedback and then do something with it.

Kevin: So there's something to that where the person giving the feedback has to do it with a certain amount of precision. In order to get it to land. I think what happens is I want to give feedback the way I like to receive feedback, [00:12:00] and that's not necessarily the way it works. Just like there's love languages.

Kevin: I think there's communication languages just because I like fun, unique experiences does not mean somebody else is going to, or it doesn't mean that's their idea of a successful relationship. So I think it's really about filtering the feedback to the right extent. And then, if the person says what else, you can give more.

Kevin: But, I think if you give too much right off the bat, the person's gonna shut down. They're gonna get a negative taste in their mouth. They're probably gonna think you're, they might not think you're arrogant, but the mirror that you have created to make them feel bad about themselves is most likely gonna get pushed back on you.

Kevin: And then you're probably never gonna get permission again to give that person. Feedback. So I think it's, I think that's a really big piece of it. Receiving feedback is a skill. Giving constructive feedback is also a skill that, that requires practice for sure. 

Roula: What, what did you [00:13:00] do to be open and skilled in accepting feedback?

Roula: Because you said you like, I mean, if you receive feedback, you work on it, you accept it, you can handle it. What 

Kevin: brought you to this point? Asking the right people. Over the right amount of time for feedback and then trying to figure out very quickly when we were getting feedback from the wrong people. So, we used to do a weekly live podcast.

Kevin: Every week we would do a live podcast in our Facebook group. And we used to ask the team, our team, for feedback. And almost every time they would say, I crushed it Kev, you did really good. And then my business partner, Alan, they'd say, ah, Alan, probably like a six out of 10. You could fix this. You could fix this.

Kevin: You could fix this. Here's the thing. Alan always wanted feedback. So people would find feedback even if there was none, and [00:14:00] I didn't want feedback as much as him, so people would just take it easy on me. So then eventually, we stopped getting feedback from the team, and then after every single episode we record, Alan and I do a Most Important Win, and a Most Important Improvement.

Kevin: And essentially it's, okay, what did Alan do really well? What did I do really well? What can Alan improve in the next episode? What can I improve in the next episode? And then we've just done that thousands of times So eventually your skin gets a little bit thicker and and you can handle more feedback The other thing is I realize that if I go to someone that I trust that I feel safe with that I know is a good person The feedback they're giving me is with the intention of helping me, not hurting me.

Kevin: So I often have the conversation with myself, is this a me problem or is this a them problem? If we get to the end of this episode and you give me feedback about something, there's two ways I can go. One, how dare you, you made me feel bad about myself, [00:15:00] you're bad. That's one. Second one is, Am I feeling insecure about this because maybe it's true?

Kevin: Am I feeling insecure about this? Did that hurt because now I'm internalizing that? And I'm personalizing that? And I'm owning that? Okay, that's a very real possibility. So that's another thing that I've really tried hard to do throughout the years is don't take the feedback personal. And all I mean by that is just because I have a bad speech does not mean I'm a bad speaker.

Kevin: Just because I have a bad coaching session does not mean I'm a bad coach. It just means that that thing didn't go as well as I wanted it to. So, reps, my skin has gotten thicker for sure. And then understanding that feedback is great, whether it's constructive or it's negative, but you shouldn't internalize it and make it part of your identity, because if that's the case, then any feedback is either going to make you feel really good about yourself, when maybe that's not true, or really bad about yourself, when maybe [00:16:00] that's not true either.

Roula: So, can you say that Or would you say that the best person to give us feedback or to ask feedback from is someone we know is critical and maybe doesn't really like us like everything we do? 

Kevin: I think if it could be constructive, sure. I, I like to ask feedback of people that are better than me at what I'm asking, because I'm trying to get really good at the stuff that I do.

Kevin: So. There's always the example of don't take financial advice from somebody who you wouldn't switch bank accounts with and that's a really good Fundamental because it's they probably have a better understanding than that somebody who doesn't have money So I try to stay in in that realm. I like getting advice and feedback from people who walk their talk It's very easy to say, you should do this, you should do this, you should do this, but I like taking advice from people that actually are doing it.

Kevin: So yeah, it depends. I think it depends. I [00:17:00] think as long as the person's going to do it constructively, there's a lot of opportunity there. But if anybody gets significance from dragging you down, it's really dangerous to ask them for feedback. 

Roula: True. I mean, with the interactions we have, we also noticed there are so many people that are so good at talking, they have so much wisdom, and But if you look at how they live their lives.

Roula: You would be surprised at what's happening. 

Kevin: Yeah. 

Roula: Where's this gap? But you're not yet to judge anyone. It's just make us wonder why. 

Kevin: Well, I think we're all guilty of that at times, right? It's a lot of people ask me for advice. And sometimes I have to say, I'm not doing this. But. I've done it in the past and it worked really well.

Kevin: And there's clients I have that are doing this very honestly. I'm not doing it right now. I always try my best to throw the disclaimer out there, but if you give a lot of [00:18:00] advice, there are going to be times where you're telling people to do what you say, not what you do, which is always dangerous. 

Roula: Yes, advice is such like walking on thin ice.

Roula: Advice, because what you mentioned is also very true. And maybe the saying need to change a little bit. We like to, when we give feedback, like we want to give a feedback the way we like to receive it, but we're different individuals. And it often, And with the other person getting defensive, and I would take in this example of feedback for people getting defensive, but people get defensive also from a conversation or a remark.

Roula: It could be so many different reasons. And I would like us to talk about giving feedback, and that person feel defensive, and what is playing actually what is the core. Of course, it changes because every person is different. What could be happening to that person [00:19:00] for getting defensive in times that the conversation should be going and open?

Kevin: You most likely triggered them in some deep way. So, My, my deepest wound, my core wound, the thing that runs me more than anything else that I'm working on, is not being good enough, not being smart enough, not being enough. So, if I get feedback that strikes that nerve, I might get defensive. Somebody else, let's say they have a, a fear of success.

Kevin: And every time they grow, they leave people behind the feedback that's going to offend them or it's going to trigger them is drastically different. So I think what's happening at the deepest level is you are striking a nerve that is either unconscious or conscious, depending on the self awareness that the person has, and you are triggering them into fight, flight or fawn.

Kevin: And if they're defensive, they might be fighting, right? They might fight back [00:20:00] if they just stopped talking and shut down, they're freezing. And if they say, yeah, you know, you're right. I'm the worst. They're just fawning. So I think it really depends on what the person's trigger is, and then what their trauma response to that trigger is.

Kevin: But it's, it's that. Underneath, it's some sort of feeling. It's probably not logical, it probably has very little to do with the actual feedback, it's just the way the feedback was received and the way the feedback was interpreted, it strikes a nerve. And I'm, I'm as guilty of that as, as anybody. Especially in the beginning, when people would give me feedback, I would get very Triggered because I thought to myself, okay, this person doesn't think I'm good enough.

Kevin: And if I'm not good enough, then I'm going to get left behind. And if I get left behind, I'm never going to be successful. So it had nothing to do with the feedback. It was more the way the feedback made me feel about me with my own traumas, my own triggers, my own insecurities, that type of stuff. And I think that's why self awareness is so important because it's not, [00:21:00] it's not always on the person who's giving you feedback.

Kevin: Sometimes it's on you to figure out why, why did that offend me, or sometimes on the opposite end. Every time I get this feedback, it makes me feel so good about myself. I'm willing to bet it's probably the opposite of your core wound. So if you don't feel good enough, every time somebody gives you feedback that you're amazing, it probably feels really good.

Kevin: Alan, my business partner, is very much the opposite. He likes when people tell him where he's, he's not good. Because his deepest fear was success. So you could say, you're the best at this, you're the best, he gets all red, his neck gets all red, he gets very insecure. Cause he doesn't want to be the best. He wants to be an underdog because he's afraid of success.

Kevin: So yeah, it really depends on the person and what's going on beneath the service the surface for lack of better phrasing. 

Roula: Yes. I was smiling because I also want to mention that I know Alan, and we also recorded an episode together. And because I listened so much to your podcast, [00:22:00] I know you both so well.

Roula: So when you describe the situation, I'm like, yeah, yeah, I, I recognize that in your episodes and the interaction. 

Kevin: Well, you've heard it. You've, you've seen it in real time. You've seen it happen. 

Roula: Yes. The thing is, when, when someone gets defensive, it feels for the other person who triggered it in a way, intentionally or not intentionally, is that it, you can't on the spot, find a way to say it differently or to approach it differently.

Roula: So I think there is work on both sides on giving the feedback and receiving the feedback. It's just in that moment. the situation becomes really awkward. So let's say the person got defensive. So what's the best approach from, so I asked you something when I gave you feedback, you got in defensive. What's the best thing I should do in that position?

Roula: What, what is the tip that you would give us? 

Kevin: I would say deescalate. [00:23:00] So, take a step back, and then, I would say try to get curious, but again, curiosity can also come across as prodding, so you gotta be very careful, but it could be something along the lines of, Kev, I noticed when I brought that to you, it seems like I may have offended you in some way.

Kevin: I'd love to, I'd love to learn more about what I said that affected you the most. Right, even the tone, even the tone is there. I'm not giving you feedback, I'm searching, I'm searching for an answer to help. So something like that, but again, even that if the person's in a rough state. They might shut down completely and they might say no, I'm fine.

Kevin: And then that's the end of it I think one of so one of the best ways is to have the preparation set So anytime not anytime oftentimes when my wife and I are giving each other feedback I'll say hey Can I have a vulnerable share all a vulnerable share is is it means I'm gonna [00:24:00] say something that scares me to say it And it might be something kind of deep, but I just want to make sure that we're on the same page and, and level set for that.

Kevin: That is a little precursor to maybe a deeper conversation. So if you have someone in your life where you're planning on giving and receiving feedback, often come up with your own code words, come up with the own, the flow of the conversation, and you're far more likely to have. Constructive conversations.

Kevin: This, this conversation is on a podcast episode. I knew coming in, we're going to talk about deep stuff. I'm very open. Awesome. It's drastically different than if somebody just walked up to me on the street. Right. I knew what to expect. So very little is going to surprise me. Most likely. I think it's the same in everyday conversations.

Kevin: So at least if you have a. a flow. Hey, can I bring something up? Maybe not the, Hey, we need to talk. That's probably not the right one, but your own unique vulnerable [00:25:00] connecting version of that is probably a good place to start. 

Roula: I like such easy things to say. And I'm telling you why, like, Hey, can we have, can I have a vulnerable conversation or can I share something vulnerable?

Roula: Because, I have young adult daughters, but when they were in their 16 teens and We think, okay, we need to have a talk, but we cannot tell them we have to have a talk, or let's have a chat, or I want to talk to you about something, because then it means they won't come home, they will lock their door, and they will avoid seeing us all together.

Roula: And truly it did not, I did not think of telling them, let's have, I want to have a vulnerable Conversation or because I thought that this, this is something people won't understand, but haven't had the consequences of saying we have to talk for that. 

Kevin: Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't work. I find that [00:26:00] it's easier just to, as long as you have enough time and enough space, then you can do it right before the chat.

Kevin: You don't necessarily have to send a message in the morning and say, Hey, tonight, Can we have a vulnerable? Depends. Depends on the level of, of the relationship. And then this is the other thing. Sometimes, especially if you're new to it and you haven't done it a lot, the level of your rela the level of the feedback, the level of the vulnerability is probably not gonna be the full depth.

Kevin: So just because I want to give you the full story and I want the good. 

Roula: I think my son wants to say good night. Do you see him in the reflection? It's 

Kevin: kind of creepy. Sorry. No, you're good. That was the cutest. 

Roula: Yes. They did the work with him when I told him to come and bother me. Oh, do you remember where we were? 

Kevin: I do. Yeah, I do. All right. Thank you. Of course. You're very welcome. You good. You want me to do it? Yes, all right. So the other thing [00:27:00] that can happen is I might try to give you all of the vulnerability at once And if this is a new thing that we're doing, I might have to filter it.

Kevin: So again, just because I'm ready to say, Hey, can, can I have a vulnerable share? And I might know exactly what I want to say exactly what I'm feeling exactly what I want to get across, but it might not be the time to go all the way yet. I might just give breadcrumbs or I might just start the conversation, whatever it is.

Kevin: I think communication in general, especially vulnerable communication is an active process. You got to see. You gotta see how it's landing, you gotta see how it's going, you gotta see how the person's feeling. There's a lot of moving pieces. And I think that's why it's just easier not to do it in the short run, right?

Kevin: It's just, well, we won't worry about this, this isn't gonna really matter anyway. It's, there's a lot that goes into it, and it's very scary, and it's very challenging, and it's very trying, but just dip your toe in and [00:28:00] see how it goes. And then understand that it's a skill and specifically in a relationship.

Kevin: It's a skill that it's worth developing to a very, very deep level. For sure. 

Roula: No, what you're saying is very enlightening in a way that I personally, in the past thought that the person's communicating, they both have to have the skills of the communication. And then I really got to learn, no, this is, I mean, I'm responsible for my skills of communication.

Roula: They have to be patient and not get defensive, not get offended because the other one might not be ready. Also, the other one might not been working on that part of their development, personal development, or they probably just don't care. Not everyone care about getting to a better level of communication.

Roula: And you mentioned something really good, is that it's easier to avoid it. And I'll [00:29:00] talk about it because then we are comfortable in our comfort zone and the other person is also in their comfort zone. So we're not rocking the boat. 

Kevin: Yeah. It's an, unfortunately the boat doesn't have to rock to sink.

Kevin: It's that's, we're not rocking the boat. That is true. That, that is absolutely true. But there is a very, very small pinhole in the bottom of the boat that's allowing water to come in and you just don't notice it yet. Very rarely, I won't say very rarely, but probably more rare than we think, do relationships end in one fell swoop.

Kevin: Just like most of us don't gain weight in one day. It's a little bit by it's just something it's a small leak for a long enough period of time And I think that's how most relationships end up getting to that point too. So yeah in the short run It's way easier to avoid all the problems and you can use that in anything [00:30:00] It's way easier not to check your bank account 100 especially if you're struggling financially, but it doesn't serve you It makes you feel good in the moment, but it doesn't.

Kevin: So going back to feedback, feedback is this weird thing where you either get feedback along the way, or you get it all at once when something explodes. So along the way is. Having the difficult conversations, boom, boom, boom, boom. All at once is five years down the line when the boat has been leaking for five years, and eventually the water takes the boat and you have that argument that you can never take back, or you've grown so far apart, or you're just two different people now, and you've just never communicated it in the short run.

Kevin: It is easier to avoid all of our problems, but unfortunately our problems do not leave unless we, we work through them. We develop the skills, the communication. So, yeah, that's. It does kind of suck to have those conversations. It's, it's not fun, but as long as you have the deep [00:31:00] belief that it's going to be constructive, it's good for both parties and it's worth it.

Kevin: That's the, that's the big one. It's worth it. Somebody asked me recently, I was, I was talking to someone on Instagram and I don't know about over there, but in the U S there is a big thing called situationships where people essentially just hang out with people and, you know, Hook up with them and have relations with them, but they're not partners.

Kevin: There's like very little commitment. 

Roula: I live in the netherlands Every awkward relationship happens here. So, 

Kevin: okay. Okay fair fair. Okay Somebody asked me they said why do you think that happens and I said because you don't have to have any of the tough conversations That's why it's easy you get the needs that you want met and then you just don't really worry about going too deep with conversations and you just You know Yeah, it's essentially a purely physical relationship with very little emotion and very little depth.

Kevin: The reason I [00:32:00] think a lot of people do it is because it's easy. It's easier than having a really deep, passionate, loving relationship where you express things that scare you often. That is not, it's not an easy thing to do, right? So it makes sense why the other route seems so wonderful. 

Roula: Kevin, you're bringing me to something to share that I have not shared on my podcast.

Kevin: Let's do it. 

Roula: But this conversation really is very close to home and I'll tell you where it got me. Okay. So, before my first marriage broke and we got divorced, Even my daughters when they were little, they were shocked when we told them that we're divorcing because they never heard us arguing, being upset with each other or, or anything.

Roula: We were, we looked like the perfect couple because we were not, [00:33:00] having difficult conversations. And in the end, we grew apart because each one of us wanted a life and we're not daring talking about it. In my actual relationship, we have maybe per week, three difficult conversations. And only when we started having these difficult conversations, I started knowing who I am and where I need to work, what I need to work on, what are my strengths.

Roula: It's, it felt like if despite the difficult conversations we're having, despite that it feels sometimes we're hitting the wall, we don't know how to go further, but then we break through. It felt that my relationship now is much more solid because of these difficult conversations that we're having, which I was very afraid of.

Roula: And I was also younger, of course, so I didn't, I had my trauma and I didn't know about them. And, So what I want to say in [00:34:00] here is that difficult conversations are not a game breaker, they are a game changer. We can get into a better understanding of who we are and who other persons are. It's just, it's scary.

Roula: It's so scary that avoiding them seems much easier. And that brings me to these relationships you were talking about. Sometimes I also think, well, wouldn't it be easier to just have a casual relationship and Not have to deal with all of this in the end. It's, it's what works for, for us best, but we will never discover who we are.

Roula: If we don't have these kick ass conversations. 

Kevin: Yeah, the point of a relationship is growth. That's we, we had a, we did a speech one time and we had one of our podcast guests who became a friend and eventually a client, [00:35:00] her name is Toria Leto, and she's a licensed marriage and family therapist. And her speech was on relationships.

Kevin: And one of the first things she said was the point of a relationship is growth. That's the, that's the point. That's why it's so important to pick the right person because they're either going to help you grow. Or maybe they're going to help you grow in a direction you don't want to grow in or whatever it is.

Kevin: But the point is growth. And unfortunately, growth usually requires resistance. Growth is not easy. Growth is challenging. That's why I think evolution is one of the hardest things in the world. You read a book, it changes the way you look at yourself. You have a little midlife crisis. Then you come out the other side and you say, Okay, cool, now I'm a new version.

Kevin: But that midlife crisis part is rough. And you can have a lot of those in relationships because I think resistance is required. It's a, it's a requirement for growth. 

Roula: Yes, and this is the only tool that will let us know if this is the right relationship or not. Just like, I mean, and I'm talking about romantic relationships, but work relationships [00:36:00] are the same.

Roula: We never know if this is the right person to do business with, just like it's not maybe the right person to spend our life with. Only these points will bring it. And of course, not every person need this or want this, but in general, I've seen more and more people listening to podcasts like ours. want to grow.

Roula: And, this is why we're doing this. 

Kevin: And 

Roula: I have to say, I can come out of my comfort zone to talk about this stuff. And here we are doing this thing. where it brings me back, because I do want to talk to you about the comfort zone. I remember a very, very important things I heard from you and from Alan about this topic on how choosing not to grow Because it's safe.

Roula: So can you take me with you a little bit in, in the comfort zone experience and [00:37:00] what, why is it so important to just get out of it? 

Kevin: I now look at comfort zones like a fence. So imagine wherever you are, whoever you are, whatever your comfort zone is. You ultimately have decided that the fears that you have, especially the ones that you're not willing to face, are where your opportunity stops.

Kevin: So, essentially, the comfort zone is a fence that you live within. And you walk up to the fence, And you look on the other side and you say, life would be amazing. It must be amazing over there. I wonder what that life is like. And here's the weird thing. All you have to do is face a fear to jump over the fence and then the fence gets bigger.

Kevin: And that's essentially the, the process that I've done for the last eight years. And that's why I get to do a lot of the stuff I get to do today because I'm just less scared than I used to be. This is very comfortable for me. Cause I've done this [00:38:00] 3000 times. The first 10 times, I was terrified. The first 20 times, well, so the first 10, I was terrified.

Kevin: Then, like, the next 10 after that, I was Scared but not as scared. And it just essentially did that for years and years and years and years. I think we convince ourselves that we can't do something because we're afraid. Understandably so. If you don't think facing the fear is worth it, then you'll just never do it.

Kevin: So there are some fears that I'm, I'm okay with never facing. It's outside of my comfort zone to jump in a pit with snakes. I'm not gonna do it. It just doesn't make sense. There's no reason for me to do it. It's not worth it to me. I'm not gonna do it. The most common thing I see, and I think the reason that we don't get out of our comfort zones more, is because we think to ourselves, Okay, what's the thing that scares me the most?

Kevin: That's what I have to do. No. If you have a level two confidence, I think you [00:39:00] should try to get out of your comfort zone at a level two and a half or a level three. So as an example, I did a speech one time and this wonderful young lady who I knew personally at the time came up to me And she said that was awesome.

Kevin: I want to be a speaker like you and I said, all right, cool I'm willing to bet you can guess the feedback that i'm going to give And she said, I got to start speaking. I said, yeah, that's a, that's a really good first step. And I said, but let's figure out where and how on a scale of zero to 10, how outside of your comfort zone would it be for you to just do the speech that I just did?

Kevin: And she said, 12 I can't do that. Cool. We're not going to start there. Okay. On a scale of zero to 10, how outside of your comfort zone would it be for you to record a video on your phone and show nobody? And she said, ah, that's probably like a, probably like a 1 out of 10. It's not, it's not enough. Okay.

Kevin: What if you record a video on your phone and you send it to just me? I promise I won't show anybody. I'll delete it after you send it. And [00:40:00] she said, that's probably like a 4 out of 10. Awesome. Let's do that. She sent me the video. I watched the video. I gave her great feedback. Boom. Off to the races. Now, it's up to her whether or not she does the next thing, which would be the level 5.

Kevin: And then the level five and a half, and then the level six. Getting out of your comfort zone is so hard because it almost never stops. It doesn't really stop. I'm still doing things today that get out of my get that forced me out of my comfort zone. It's different. And when it doesn't go well, I get, I get up faster.

Kevin: But I think the deep belief that you have to have within yourself is it will be worth it to do it because if it's not worth it, there's just not enough. There's not enough necessity. So it took me like 150 podcast episodes before I felt relatively good as a podcaster. And even then I was still scared before all of our interviews.

Kevin: And I still have moments where. So that's, that's all to be said, that make sure you're setting [00:41:00] the right size fear that you're gonna face. That's one. Be very honest, very honest about where you actually are in terms of your comfort zone. It's only gonna hurt you if you pretend you're more confident than you are.

Kevin: It's not gonna help. And don't judge yourself for the small progress that you make. In the, in the very beginning, I used to track the number of fears I chased. That's what we called it. We called it fear chasing. And every time I did something, I sent a message to this person. Check. Awesome. I, I, I, I faced one of my fears today.

Kevin: When I would call, I'd call the phone company. Awesome. There's another one. And I just stacked those. Stack them, stack them, stack them. Eventually, that stuff gets easier and then You elevate to a new level of fear chasing, 

Roula: you know, maybe we, we, when we think of comfort zone, we give it also a very big, reflection while every day we face our comfort zone.[00:42:00]

Roula: For example, one of most uncomfortable zones is as a parent to stand in front of the computer. school entry, wait for your kids to come out. I can see all parents are standing there and we're not talking. We're all feeling like very awkward unless the parents who know each other. And when I'm standing there, and I don't know anyone because we moved recently to here, I feel like I'm not in my comfort zone.

Roula: This is not the school I'm used to. So this is a small thing that I'm facing every day at two o'clock is outside my comfort zone. Or for the listener, it could be having a tea break at work with someone that they haven't spoken to before. And probably they don't like this person, but they have to work together.

Roula: This is also coming out of their comfort zone. 

Roula: It, we, it happened to us every day getting out of our comfort zone, but when we talk about it, it feels like this huge thing that we [00:43:00] have to overcome. And we forget that we're overcoming this every day in little steps. So this fence. 

Kevin: Yeah, well, I think it gets to a place where it doesn't seem necessary.

Kevin: I don't, I don't think there's a stat out there or like a graph, but this is how I think of it. I imagine that as somebody gets older, the likelihood of them learning to ride a bike probably goes down. And it's most likely because learning to ride a bike, I don't remember because I was young when I did it.

Kevin: I am guessing it would be so humbling for 35 year old Kevin to try to learn how to ride a bike if I've never done it before. And in my mind, I'm just thinking, One, I'm going to look like an idiot. And two, I'm When's the next time I'm gonna ride a bike anyway? Doesn't even matter. It's not worth it. It doesn't, it doesn't, it's not a requirement for me to do it.

Kevin: Same thought for, for driving a car. I'll never forget the first time I got behind the wheel of a car with my mom when I was [00:44:00] 16. I said, how do you make this look so easy? I don't, how do I stay, wait, I have to stay this far away and I gotta make sure I'm doing the speed limit? Wait, what? Everybody I've ever driven with, they make it look so easy.

Kevin: Now, I'm a great driver. I've driven so much in my life, I don't even think about it. It's like the easiest part of my day is driving to the gym. Easy, I can do that. But I wonder right now, as 35, if I had someone to drive me around, or I didn't have to drive that much, I'm willing to bet it would be so far outside of my comfort zone that I probably wouldn't want to do it.

Kevin: Cause it just, eh, is it really worth it? Is it really worth me doing that? I'm going, last thing, last story on this one. I'm going to I'm the best man in my best friend's wedding next year. And I can't say what we're doing because he doesn't know yet. And who knows somehow through the ethos, maybe you'll hear, but we're taking a, we're taking a plane somewhere.

Kevin: And one of the guys who [00:45:00] got invited literally said, nah, man, I can't, I'm not coming. It's, I don't want to have to take a plane. I feel you. I don't like planes either, but I had a conversation with myself when I started this journey that if I want to be an international speaker, I'm gonna have to get on a plane.

Kevin: It's gonna have to happen at some point. My purpose for overcoming the fear, my necessity for overcoming the fear, is just greater than his is. That's all it is, he just doesn't need to do it in order to accomplish and Create the life that he desires. I do. That's, that is a requirement for me. So necessity is a, it plays a very big role too.

Kevin: Some things you don't have to, you don't have to expand your comfort zone on, but some things you do, or you'll end up regretting it in 20 years when you don't do it.

Roula: Good examples. I like them because they resonate with me so much. 

Kevin: I appreciate it. 

Roula: I learned riding a bike when I was I think 27 or 28.

Roula: I moved to the Netherlands and [00:46:00] no, even later, I think my daughter was born. I moved to the Netherlands and life here is on the bike. So I found myself one of those parents. I couldn't go anywhere with my kids because all parents are on their bike with their kids. And I'm either walking or taking public transport.

Roula: It felt like I cannot live like this. How can I build a life if I'm not commuting the same way other people are doing? My social life needs to start. This is how I got in over my comfort zone because my comfort zone was first, I'm embarrassed. I'm so old and I cannot ride a bike. It's embarrassing. I'm embarrassed to go on the bike and have my, my husband, my ex, teaching me and like cycling next to me while everyone is looking.

Roula: I was so busy with what people will think and judge. And no one cares, really. No one cares about what I'm doing. On the [00:47:00] contrary, people like encourage me a lot that I'm doing this at such an age. And that this is a very, this is a good memory of, for me, of, Because you mentioned it getting outside of my comfort zone and learning how to ride a bike.

Roula: I even moved houses on the bike with my furniture. 

Kevin: Look at that. That's why it resonated because you, you are literally the person in the, in the example. And that's I'm sure now you're grateful you did it. And I'm sure you don't even think about it when you do it. And I think that's a really good example for most things.

Kevin: Most things in life. I really do. I think there are certain things where if you can get outside of your comfort zone and you can improve them even by a little bit, this, this experience for so many people is wildly uncomfortable. Meeting somebody, you're not a stranger cause I've talked to you, but meeting somebody and then talking and then it going on the internet.

Kevin: The only reason I don't think about it is because I've just done it so much that I've exposure therapy. That's [00:48:00] all. It's just, I've just done it enough. And eventually. It gets easier. And I think that's most things in life. 

Roula: Yeah, just have to, as I, I mean, mostly we have to stop thinking what other people are judging, thinking, and that we will not be all right.

Roula: There are a few things I still am not ready to go outside of my comfort zone for, but. 

Kevin: Same, my friends. A skydiving, not interested. Yeah, I'm not interested in 

Roula: it. I like to keep my feet on the ground. 

Kevin: Same. Same. Planes are good. I'll do planes. I don't know if you're ever going to get me to jump out at one.

Kevin: I don't know about that. 

Roula: No rush, no rush. Maybe we have next episodes when you do that. 

Kevin: Okay. Consider it done. 

Roula: I want to wrap up our conversation with confidence and humility because you know, everything we talked about have to do with either with the receiver or the giver. The giver has confidence, the receiver has humility, and also vice [00:49:00] versa.

Roula: And I find it fascinating that I personally was not busy with the word humility for so long, because I didn't really know what it meant. Until I started talking to people and being more curious and vulnerable, this is how I started understanding what humility is. And I, confidence, yes, as you said, I like to ask feedback from people who I see they have confidence in themselves and what they do.

Roula: They walk the walk and they talk the talk. So, but this circle back to everything we said about arrogance, being defensive, accepting change, comfort zone, and I know that confidence and humility is also something that you guys talk about on the podcast. And I want you to take us with you in this last sweet spot.

Kevin: Okay. Thesis is confidence is the ability to [00:50:00] figure it out or the thought process around how you'll figure it out. So, again, let's use the car analogy. Most of us watching or listening, if we have a license, we are probably very confident when it comes to driving. Because we have done it. And we have figured it out.

Kevin: Cool. If I was to say on a scale of zero to 10, how confident are you that when you get a flat tire in your car, you can fix it. If you don't have any experience with that and you have no idea how to figure it out, you're probably not super confident. If you're somebody who self identifies as pretty good with tools, pretty handy.

Kevin: I'm sure I could probably figure that out. Yeah. Maybe like six out of 10, you're probably six out of 10 confident. If you're somebody who has done it a hundred times, you're 10 confident, you know how to do it. You know how to do it when things go wrong and you know how to do it when things don't go the way you want Them to go that's true confidence confidence is the [00:51:00] ability to do something and or figure it out Certainty right confidence is certainty at the end of the day humility.

Kevin: I think humility is having an accurate view of yourself Regardless of how it makes you feel. I think that is true humility And the reason I word it that way is because some people You Will say to someone who they give a compliment. Let's say somebody comes up to you and says hey You're you're a really good speaker.

Kevin: If my truth is I think I am a good speaker Humility is not saying no, no, no, no. No, I'm not. I'm the worst. No, no, no, that's not humility. That's self deprecation Humility is saying thank you ownership. Thank you so much for the kind words. I appreciate it and My truth is I have a long way to go Because [00:52:00] statistically speaking, I am pro, I am an above average speaker.

Kevin: I've done a lot of reps. It makes sense. I should be. And I also am a long way from where I want to be just like on the other end. If somebody came up to me and you've heard this on the podcast, how many times Allen will say to me, Kev is way more disorganized than I am. Humility is me saying, yes, you are right.

Kevin: You 100 percent are way more organized than I am. And I'm doing myself to improve. I'm doing my best to improve myself as we, as we practice this journey. So I think humility is just living in the truth. And I think that it's very easy for you to hear a compliment that you feel is true deep down and then deflect it because it makes you feel uncomfortable that I don't think that's humble.

Kevin: I think humility is ownership and that's on both ends. When I do a great job, I want to say, thank you so much. [00:53:00] And when I don't do a great job, I want to say, Thank you so much. And it's, it's very easy. I think the opposite of humility is entitlement. You just assume things should be given to you. You assume things just should go the way you want them to.

Kevin: And I just, I don't think that's true. Entitlement is very, very dangerous. Humility is truth. I am as successful as I should be based on the amount of work I've done. I am as successful as I should be based on the amount of. Prioritization I've done for things that matter the most, right? That's the truth.

Kevin: That's the truth. I should not be more successful than I am because I haven't done what it takes to to get there yet. So yeah, I think confidence is just. The knowing and the certainty that you can figure it out, and then I think humility is living, it's living in the truth, as uncomfortable and scary as that can be.

Kevin: Now, again, there's always a spectrum. So, if somebody comes up to you and says, [00:54:00]Hey, I saw you doing this over here and you're really good at it, and you don't feel good at it yet, Humility for you might be saying, thank you so much. I appreciate that. I don't feel that way yet, but I do appreciate the fact that you took the time to say that to me.

Kevin: I'm going to do my best to receive that, right? That maybe in the, in the moment, that's humility. Maybe you're not ready for, for full ownership yet, right? It's, it's understandable, but I think there's certain things that if you feel like you're really good at taking compliments in certain things, probably the things that you believe the most about you.

Kevin: And I'm guessing that's probably where you're the most humble. Unless you're delusional. That's a whole nother, that's a whole nother layer. 

Roula: You know, it seems that from the way you're explaining it, you're making it sound like humility equal confidence. 

Kevin: Yeah, I think it's almost impossible to be humble without confidence.

Kevin: It's [00:55:00] because I think people when they think, when they think humble, they think the opposite is arrogant. I think the opposite of arrogance is self deprecation. I think humility is in the middle. If self deprecation is zero and arrogance is ten, humility is five. Humility is where we aspire to. That's the middle.

Kevin: That's where we want to get to. Because you know what you know and you know what you don't know. That's humility. Humility is in a room of a hundred people. I'm probably in the top five speakers and in a room full of a hundred people I'm probably in the bottom 5 percent of height if they're men. That's Humility, right?

Kevin: That's true. I'm 5 foot 5 5 foot 6 on a good day. I'm not tall. That's humility. That's the truth and There are some people out there that [00:56:00] wouldn't find that attractive That is the truth. There are some people out there that want somebody taller than them. That is the truth. I think humility is just living in the truth, because anything else, you're just, you're just making yourself feel better at the potential expense of your future.

Kevin: I'm not saying you shouldn't, I think you make yourself better to the degree that you can handle it, but that's why it's so, that's why it's so hard. I don't, I used to think when you gave somebody a compliment and they rejected it, that was humility. I don't think that anymore. I really don't. I think that's just self deprecation.

Kevin: I think humility is ownership. Thank you so much. And if that's, if that's the truth, right? But that's where it gets wonky because I've met some incredibly attractive humans. Who, if you tell them they're beautiful, they don't think it. They don't believe that. It's not that they're not being humble. They genuinely do not think they are.

Kevin: They're being self deprecating. So there's a lot of layers to it. 

Roula: Also, it plays a role. I [00:57:00] think, and correct me if I'm wrong, that when, when we, we want to be humble, but our ego is telling us not to, because we're afraid to put down our guards or to face our, who, who would, our truth. So, our ego, I think, keep us from using this humility towards confidence to shine, actually, the person who we are.

Roula: And this ego, I don't want to swear on my podcast. My guest can swear, I'm not swearing. 

Kevin: Well, it protects you. That's the, the goal of the ego is to protect you from truths that you're not ready for yet. Unfortunately, I don't know if it always has a good filter of what you're ready for yet. It, that, I think that's why self improvement and podcasts and conversations like this are so important, because as you become more competent externally, [00:58:00] as you become more sound internally, You're capable of handling more feedback and not just, Hey, I think you're good at this or, Hey, I think you're bad.

Kevin: I mean, life feedback the, the bills are late and we got to get groceries and this has to happen and this has to happen and this has to happen. But when your self development point raises the stuff that used to just make you overwhelmed to the point where you couldn't do anything gets a little bit easier.

Kevin: Still hard, but that's why it's so, that's why it's so important, because you have confidence, and then you have humility, and then you, then you start to understand yourself where, let's say you're confident and you start winning, and things are going well, and then you find yourself getting a little bit arrogant, you say, well it doesn't, everything I do turns to gold, I don't even have to worry about it that much, alright, we're getting a little, we're getting a little arrogant, we're getting a little entitled here, alright, we're getting Like you gotta be careful, but on the other end, let's say you've been doing so well.

Kevin: You're consistent, you're crushing things, everything's going really well. And then you have one bad day, [00:59:00] and then you say, I suck. I'm never gonna be successful. I'm the worst. All of this work has been for nothing. It's good to know that. You gotta know your response to failure and your response to success.

Kevin: It's important to know that. I think self awareness is the most valuable thing. Genuinely the most valuable thing on the planet. I really do believe that. 

Roula: Does it, does it look like the ones who says who had this one bad day and doubt themselves are more open for change than those who think, well, everything I touch it turns into gold?

Kevin: It depends on who's coaching them. So, I am definitely the one who, I have a bad day and I assume everything is burning down. My gosh, we're gonna lose, I'm the worst. But it's good to have somebody who has very high self belief to help you level set that. I think it's, I'll say this, I do think it's easier to build someone up.

Kevin: Then it is to break someone down. I don't like breaking people down. So I don't, I do not work with people who are arrogant or entitled. I can't do it. [01:00:00] I'm not interested in it. I'd say, no, I just don't know how to do it without feeling dirty. I don't want to tear people down. And it's not what I signed. I didn't sign up for this to tear people down.

Kevin: I signed up for this to, to build people up. We do really well with people who are struggling with self belief and self worth because it's. They're humble, usually somebody's, I would say, so yeah, to your point, the person who is the most humble is usually the person who is most ready for change. So yeah, I would say your thesis is probably pretty correct 

Roula: and we need both of them 

Kevin: in ourselves or in humanity 

Roula: and humanity 

Kevin: and ourselves with 

Roula: coaching.

Kevin: We should get there. Yeah, I think within ourselves it's important because there are certain, I am very confident in the gym. I'm not, I don't have any, I'm not arrogant, but I am very confident to assure myself. It's good to feel that it's [01:01:00] good to know what that feels like because then you can measure everything else.

Kevin: So I think that's Important that's i'm not there's very little self doubt for me in the gym when I go to the gym that that's that It's good to experience that. So yeah, I think it's very important to have that in ourselves. And yeah unfortunately, some of the most successful people on the planet are the ones who are the most arrogant because They take chances that other people You Wouldn't take steve jobs had the thing he used to say about the reality distortion field where he just Everything was different.

Kevin: He just looked at the world differently. He didn't think he could fail He thought he could change the world and he ended up creating apple Which is one of the most successful companies on the planet So there are people out there that are just hyper confident Hinging on arrogant and many of them accomplish many big things So yeah, I do think it's I do think it's valuable in places and spaces But I do think the ultimate goal is to get [01:02:00] to humble, which is somewhere in the middle.

Roula: Look, with what's going on in the world, we have, we're seeing at this time, these days, we're seeing so much, self confidence and so much things going on that has nothing to do with humility. And, it, it feels sometimes embarrassing to relate to those with big self confidence because. We cannot see any benefits from it yet.

Roula: And I say this to myself because I feel I want to put a sticker on my car because I drive a Tesla and I want to put a sticker on it to say, I do not support Elon Musk, but this product is so good. I feel wrong sitting in the car just because the ideas are so bad, but the product works well. And this is confusing because I know he's, he's, I don't want to talk about Musk, but my point is that, yeah, we need both of them because of that, I'm [01:03:00] driving happy with this car.

Roula: Otherwise it's different. 

Kevin: Yeah. And I, that's why that's where it gets wonky because there's. There's the, the person and then what they create and then there's the approach and then there's leadership. There's so many layers to being a human being, especially somebody that big in terms of responsibility and opportunity and all that, but that's what makes it.

Kevin: Very, very challenging, right? It's, it's, is this person good for the world? I don't know. Some, some people create stuff that's really good for the world. Other people don't. It's a very, it's a very philosophical, very philosophical question, but it's, I think that's why it's so important to do the work because Unless you want to change, you're most likely not going to change positively by accident.

Kevin: I think it's really easy to change negatively, because it's just kind of go with the flow. And there is no, there really is no such thing as maintenance. You're not staying the same. You're either getting better or worse because you're older today than you were yesterday. [01:04:00] So you're degrading if you don't change.

Kevin: So there really is no such thing as, like, yeah, I'm staying the same. You can't. It doesn't really work that way. It's, it's, it's You're either improving or you're not, unfortunately, and I think that's, I don't know. I don't know why we're here, I don't know what the point of life is, but I do think if you can do your best to make sure that you leave this earth a more evolved version than you came, I'd say you're probably doing your part.

Roula: If you would ask me this question a few years ago, I wouldn't know how to answer, but today Not today in the day, but in this time wonder what's the point is being in this world is surrounding ourself with people that make us happy, give us good feedback, dare telling us who we are, where our mistake are, what our truth is.

Roula: Have these difficult conversations I have a last question before we wrap up is that I want to know from [01:05:00] you. If you can think about it now, what coaching you did and impacted you and you got really a win from it that you thought, wow, like this was.

Roula: worth it Oh 

Kevin: man, this is always a hard one for me because I have, I've had Alan coaching me since the very beginning of this. So most of, I mean, I've done a lot of work and I work on myself, but I've had a mentor for the last eight years that I could text any day of the week and get a response. So honestly, this whole journey.

Kevin: Is something that I never thought was going to happen and I never thought it was going to happen this way I'll give you a i'll give you an example one time I got a text message from alan and he said hey, man, we have an opportunity to go to this this Networking event or something and I was like, okay.

Kevin: What's the point? He said well just meet people I don't get outside of your comfort zone go [01:06:00] meet people It's on this private island down at in cape cod in massachusetts And I was like what and he said yeah You gotta have you gotta get a password to get on the island all this stuff And I didn't want to go.

Kevin: I did not want to go. I don't want to go. It's not worth it. I'm scared. I'm outside of my comfort zone. I'm not good enough. I'm not smart enough. I don't know how to have conversations with strangers. And we ended up going. And it was one of those things where, from a measurable perspective, I accomplished nothing.

Kevin: I didn't get any clients. I didn't make any friends. I didn't have any really great conversations. Nothing externally changed. But internally I grew I grew now. I don't really care. I don't mind having conversations with strangers at all I'm, just so used to it. I've done it so many times the the lesson in that for me was some of the biggest Shifts you will make some of the some of the best growth you'll ever experience will be completely [01:07:00] invisible to other people for years But it all starts with that small stuff internally that going to that island party not knowing anybody Outside of my comfort zone something changed in me and that allowed me to face another fear and then I faced another fear So yeah, most of the things that I thought were a big waste of time in the past Maybe from an external standpoint, probably were, but internally, they have changed me so, so, so very much.

Kevin: That has been a massive lesson for me. Is there anything else off the top of my head? Honestly, the podcast in general, I never expected to get to 1900 episodes where we are. I never expected to do most of what we're doing. But Alan just said at the beginning, he said, dude, if we just do this more than anyone else, we're gonna get really good at it.

Kevin: We're going to impact a lot of people and eventually, there's no way we don't eventually become successful. And it, I don't know, it's weird. It doesn't [01:08:00] feel like we've done 1900 episodes. Some days it does, other days it feels like we started yesterday. So that's another one of those ones where, from day to day, progress is essentially invisible.

Kevin: I've, I did podcast last week. I'm doing podcast this week. Measurably, I am no better. But from year to year and then decade to decade, progress is impossible to miss. It just, good or bad. I didn't understand the importance of time. I didn't understand that 10 years can do a lot to a person if it's, if it's pointed in the right direction.

Kevin: So that was another really big thing is, I wanted to get there now. That was always how fast can I get there? How fast can I get there? How fast can I get there? Now my new frame is how good can I be when I get there? Not how fast can I get there? How good can I be when I get there? And that's been something that's been very positive for me.  [01:09:00]

Roula: I'm very glad you made it till the end of the episode. It means the episode resonated with you and you feel that the content has been useful for you. , please connect with me to tell me more how this episode can help you in elevating your communication, what benefits you found in it, and, , connect with my guests.

Roula: His, , details will be in the show notes. If you want to receive a half an hour free coaching on how to elevate your health, your wealth, and your love life. Thank you so much for listening, and I will see you next time.

Roula: Thank you for listening to today's episode. If you enjoyed it, please share it with your friends and family and ask them to subscribe. Leaving a rating and review on platforms like Apple Podcast can also help boost the podcast ranking your support. Through word of mouth is greatly appreciated. If you feel I'm [01:10:00] encouraging you to tell your story, contact me or ruler at the life affairs podcast.com.

Roula: You will see my email in the show notes. I'll see you next time.